Episode Transcript

Rene: Kirk is the registered nurse. Trevor is a pharmacist. And I'm Rene. I'm the producer of Reefer Madness the podcast, introducing the second part of a conversation that Trevor had with David Traylor, a very, very interesting man. I'll let Trevor explain exactly who David is as he introduced him in E172.

Trevor:  I'm just going to do a really quick blitz through his, we'll call it resume, just so people get an idea of all the stuff he does, has done. Founder, managing director of Golden Eagle Partners, that's what we talked about before. In first investment banking firm to look at cannabis and psychedelic sectors since 2013. Chief business officer for Surna, one of the first public companies in the world in cannabis. He was managing director, senior VP, senior associate at some other investment banks, looking at life science, health care. During his banking stuff, he looked after public biotech medical devices. He had 15 years actually in Biotec companies before that. Because everyone's got to have a really interesting thing in the back story. He was actually a professional lacrosse player back in the late eighties. And, uh, lest you think he's just, he's, just a jock David got degrees in biochemistry, molecular and cellular and developmental biology, and he has an inventor on three issued U.S. Patents. So he's done a lot both in biotech and in, we'll call it, the investment banking world and has sort of specialized in cannabis and psychedelics for the last 10 plus years.

Rene: Well, there you have it, a very, very interesting man. And here now is the rest of Trevor's conversation with David Traylor. And then Trevor and Kirk are going to give their insight into what David had to say over these last two episodes. Enjoy.

Trevor:  Let's pretend I'm a Procter& Gamble and you know I really do am interested in making a CBN toothpaste. So CBN we talked about on the show before just meant it's a cannabinoid and some people are convinced it's really good for helping people sleep. So you know we want to make a nighttime toothpaste and we want put CBN into it. But you know again we don't necessarily want to have our scientists looking into it what would what would they do if they they were sort of kind of thinking about CBN and a toothpaste product. They would call you up and then kind of then what would happen.

David Traylor: Yeah, so certainly, yeah, we'd get something in place certainly over a certain period of time. And then we'd probably three months at the minimum, right, to help them strategize. And the idea is to help him do product development. And the other thing that, luckily for myself, you know, I worked in biotech companies. I was a project manager, so I understand product development cycles. So we can help them on a lot of different fronts, but the idea is, yeah, okay, if it's CBN, it's toothpaste. I mean... You know, we, uh, luckily, as you know, when you and I met down at CannMed, you know we put together these panels at CannMed that include, you know, Ethan Russo and Deb Kimless and Deddy Myrie and Hunter Land. You know that's the thing. So if we don't have the answer, we certainly know some of the preeminent people around the world that can provide, you know, really top notch answers, especially on CBN. Because yeah, for example, we have a client. So let's talk about sleep. You know, we have a client. Maybe you do a CBD, CBN, both cannabinoids because we have client of Avecho Biotech that's based out of Melbourne, Australia. They're on a phase three trial right now in insomnia with CBD, not CBN. But I do know that I did, you know, connect Hunter Land to the CEO one time a couple of number of years ago. And Hunter Land was like, yeah, I think CBN is better for sleep than CBD, right? So. You know, there's a lot, and this gets down to kind of like biotechnology, right? Instead of just, you know, when your fingers are sticking in the air, go do the work, do the science, really figure out what these molecules do, what targets they hit, right. And one last thing to add to this, which is really cool, Trevor, is that the other thing is I worked for a company called Affymetrix back in the 90s, one of the leading genomics companies, and they're certainly one of first companies to coin the term pharmacogenomics. Thank you. So, you know, that's the other thing is that each of us is different in different ways with you know how we respond to medicine and compounds, even caffeine or smoking pot or whatever, right? So that there's that whole component to it too that we need to weave in.

Trevor:  Yeah and for those of you who haven't it's it's becoming big in pharmacy world as I said it's been around for a while but yeah they're talking about you know could you get a home kit that you could buy in a pharmacy that says you know you metabolize caffeine really quickly so you know eight cups of coffee before bed won't affect you but you metabolised codeine very slowly so in one Tylenol 3, you know might put you to sleep for the rest of the day and with a profile like that. It would be easier for us to prescribe to you. Now that's on the pharmaceutical end, but there's going to be the whole separate end on the, we'll call it the natural product side. So yeah, if we could have both a pharmacogenomics profile for someone and match them up to the perfect type of PepsiCo product, that would be ideal.

David Traylor: Yeah, well there's companies out there. There's Len May, CEO of a company that does a lot of that with genetic profiling and response to certain compounds, whether it's psilocybin or cannabinoid or any other kind of compound. So there's definitely interesting companies at the forefront of this stuff.

Trevor:  Then the last because the obviously the pharmacology is the most interesting to me but if i was a company you guys also have expertise in the we'll call it the regulatory end too right you so you can't you could just you could help them develop the right product but then different countries especially the U.S. There's going to be different loopholes to jump through to get it from a product to a product that can be sold to the public

David Traylor: Oh, sure. I mean, yeah, that's the other thing that's cool about it. You know, we could call on Eric Berlin at Denton's. David Culver, as I'm sure you know, used to be a Canopy Growth. He's a leading lobbyist. Um, Lisa Haug is one of the leading people in, uh, Europe or Kai Friedrich Niermann, uh he's a leading lawyer, uh over in, Daniel Heyman out of Switzerland. Yeah. I mean that you bring up a good point. That's another thing why, you know we don't have all the answers. Nobody does in this crazy space. But we have the Rolodex and connections to connectivity to get, you know, again, if these companies want to try to do it on their own, they're going to waste a lot of time and money because we can connect them to the real answers to tough questions very quickly.

Trevor:  Yeah, Skunkworks has the network in place like now to find your answers.

David Traylor: And the cool thing is, I mentioned before, pretty much 99% of the people, the only person that I talked to didn't think it was a good idea was the guy mentioned Paul Gavin at Veko Biotech in Australia, because he's like, well, there's a lot of GW Pharma people running around trying to do the same thing. I'm like, no, this is not just GW Pharmo. This is not biotech. We're across the whole spectrum of questions of whether it's regulatory or even botany, for that example. So we'll see what happens. It's great to see you, Trevor, and thanks for having me on.

Trevor:  Me too and just my last question I ask everyone at the end because I miss stuff was there anything you wished I'd ask anything you think the audience needs to about Skunk Works?

David Traylor: No, one of the questions, and I don't know really what the question is, one of questions I ask all my guests when we have our GP webinar is what is one quality, personal characteristic of yours that you think has helped you be successful?

Trevor: That's a great question. I wish I'd asked that.

David Traylor: And yeah, we get a lot of different answers. But I think mine is probably perseverance. When, you know, because that's the thing, like getting back to GP, right? I think most people probably would have quit. I mean, if you would have told me that, you know, 12 years in, we'd be where we're at with cannabis, which is really nowhere. I would have quite a long time ago. So maybe, yeah, maybe perseverance and The stupidity are probably awesome.

Trevor:  It's hard to tell in the moment which is which. We're gonna go with perseverance. Well, thank you, David. It has been lovely catching up. This is very exciting, and we're hoping to hear more about Skunk Works down the road.

David Traylor: Yeah, maybe we do one near the end of the year and we can revisit and see what's happened or not happened.

Trevor:  That would be fantastic. Did you want me to go into our digression on aero planes or do you want to leave that alone?

Kirk:  Well, I guess what we should explain is Skunk Works, that term comes from a business organisation of aerospace.

Trevor:  Yeah, Lockheed Martin had, maybe still has a secret, literal secret part that developed fancy secret aero planes for the U.S. Government, U. S. Air Force, probably some CAA stuff. There's probably stuff that was done in Skunk Works we still don't know about, but it was like a top secret place that developed top secret stuff and some of the stuff we do know about is super cool. My favorite is the Blackbird, the SR-71 Blackbird. It's a plane who literally looked like a spaceship and as a kid I remember reading about it and yeah some of the like speed and altitude records it set back in the 1960s as far as I know are still haven't been broken.

Kirk:  Cool, so he named his new business after Skunk Works for that reason, that it's top secret? Yeah, that's kind of the idea or they're into new designs.

Trevor:  Yes and yes. So they figure there is interest out there from some really big companies in, you know, the food space, the beverage space, the cosmetic space, who really are interested in getting some natural products into their products. But hesitant, not sure they have the expertise for a variety of reasons, aren't jumping at it. So. This would be kind of your your secret best friend if you were a Red Bull and you know you don't necessarily want all your investors etc the public the media to know that you're looking into getting a natural product into some Red Bull drink but you know skunkworks could you know They've got the everything from the pharmacology and botany background to the legal background to give you a good idea if this was worth pursuing what you could do, what it could do what you'd have to go through to get it to market legally. So and they would do this all like they said white label like it would be as if Red Bull did it on their own. Skunk Works wouldn't ever reveal the companies they they did their work for so sort of an arm's length. Research company that you could have help you develop some natural products into your your existing line without you having to do all the work yourself.

Kirk:  Yeah, and it's a relatively new company because you go on the internet and their home page is under construction and I think this is relatively new, right?

Trevor:  Yes, my understanding, less than a year Skunk Works has been around for now.

Kirk:  Well, I'm going to tell you what really popped for me in your discussion, and it's sort of timely for me, Trevor, because I've been listening and doing a lot of studying lately and working deeper into the endocannabinoid system and learning stuff about cannabis and looking at it for medicinal. Ever since we talked to Dr. Robinson about diabetes and cannabis, I've been on a real search for how cannabis has truly been stigmatised. And when I listen to your conversation with David, I really believe that this has all been orchestrated. You know? Like, again, I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist here, but when you we start looking at cannabis as a global entity as a global business. I mean, back in Reefer Madness days, the Hearst business, the DuPonts, big business came down on marihuana. Spelt it with an H, and got marijuana scheduled as a Schedule I psychotropic, what is it? It's under Schedule 1 and is considered a psychotropic drug. And what really popped for me is when David said that, you know, when you look at Schedule 1. You start looking at the components, the molecules that have been registered as one. But you start looking Marihuana, spelled with an H, which is purely, purely a reference to the Mexican accent and how Marijuana is said, it is purely stigmatised within the government of America. So I thought that popped. And the fact that his global banking firm, Golden Eagles, is one of the last remaining financers that started in 2018, 2015, when cannabis was the rage and everyone was going to say, well, finally, cannabis will get its due. Cannabis makes paper, but we cut down boreal forests. Cannabis is medicine, but yet big pharmaceutical companies are still what we go to. Even in opiate reduction programs, I mean, we have, you and I have discussed this, we've talked to experts, we talked to people who have done the studies, Cannabis has been shown to decrease the use of opiates. In people that use it for prescription, people that used it as a substance of misuse. Cannabis will decrease its use. But yet, even in opiate replacement programs, cannabis isn't listed. It's a list of a whole bunch of pharmaceuticals that have been built in a lab. So that's what popped for me in this conversation is how cannabis is truly thwarted. In the banking industry, in big business industry, and in medicine. That's what popped for me.

Trevor:  Yeah, I'm not saying you're wrong about any of that. I don't think it's an organised conspiracy against cannabis. You know, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there is some cabal somewhere. I think it is stigma and momentum.

Kirk:  Okay, but that's not the end, we're getting into this.

Trevor:  Okay, fine, but just before we get into that, whether that's true or not, I think it is interesting, again, and I used during the conversation the CBN toothpaste as an example. Now, in different conversations, you know, we talk about the people who want to take out a molecule from the cannabis plant and use it in something because it's easier to patent versus people who wanna use the whole plant. And I've said before, and I'll say again, I think it's going to end up being somewhere between the single molecule people and the whole plant people is how it is going to ended up, but you know, again, wait and see. But I also think it going to be harder to get cannabis into our cannabis products and all the other, we mentioned a lot more than just cannabis natural products into the mainstream without. The money behind some of these big companies. So I think this is a very interesting way of getting companies who are reluctant to spend on natural products, to spend a natural products because it sort of de-risks it, takes some of the risk out for them. So, and once a PepsiCo has a cannabis base or a natural product based product, then again, it's another step towards destigmatization and just acceptance out there. So I thought this was a really interesting, you know, who knows might not end up being the right one, but I thought it was a nice interesting way to to take another bite out of getting it into the mainstream.

Kirk:  Well, I sort of agree with what David's doing. He's got to find another angle. But I want to talk more about this orchestration. Well, we know for sure, right, we for sure through documentation that in the 1920s, 30s and 40s, cannabis was stigmatised and it was orchestrated. There's no question that has been documented. How William Hearst went after the cannabis industry, how DuPont went after cannabis industry. And this all happened because they were in the middle of owning forests and making paper mills and making synthetic ropes and they replaced cannabis. And today, why I say it's orchestrated is because I've been doing some research on mindfulness, right? And what's happening in Canada right now is that 50% of us are happy. 50% of us are not happy. And this has all been measured. This has all been measured through Health Canada, Statistics Canada has the Wellness Framework that they use. The 15 years old to the 24 year olds are the saddest generation out there right now. Like 65 percent of that generation is considered sad. And when I talk about orchestration, what's very curious about that generation is that that generation, is not going towards alcohol as an intoxicant. They are moving to cannabis as an intoxicant. You and I, over the years, and we've been doing this for years, we've talked about the damage alcohol has done compared to the damage that cannabis has done. And without getting deep into it, you've agreed with me that you would have preferred your high school children to have rather indulged in their cannabis use than maybe the alcohol use. Now, for whatever reason, That I mean but when that's come out. What is industry doing right now? I mean, very recently, we've had two premiers, Doug Ford in Ontario and Wab Kanoo in Manitoba, have a nice little back and forth over Crown Royal alcohol. Because alcohol creates employment for Ontario and Manitoba. So they've been back and forward. They've been using alcohol as a leverage tool to make Canada whole and shop within Canada. Meanwhile, access to medical cannabis is difficult. The other thing, when you go to the demographic, the sad demographic, who are now going towards cannabis instead of alcohol, what's the thing that CBC Radio starts talking about? quick question. What came out of the news very quickly in the last few weeks? That the whole issue of

Trevor:  More people using cannabis was causing more psychosis in younger people.

Kirk:  Correct. Correct. Now, I don't disagree. I've read that study. But what they fail to say about that study is the variables that are involved. And the variable that's involved is it's happening to very few children and it's it's happened to children that have predisposed factors for mental health issues. They don't talk about any of that. They just basically say that don't use cannabis, it will make you schizophrenic. Now, okay, I'm stretching it. But it's fear. It's fear. Everything about cannabis is fear factor. Meanwhile, cannabis is sitting back, you're going, I can make you paper. I can't make you healthy houses. Like, I can give you some medicine that's low risk. And we can create businesses. PepsiCo is not going to use cannabis because they can't patent it or maybe they want to put THC into Pepsi. My point is that rather than educate people like they did with responsible drinking campaigns, which is probably one of the reasons why the young generation isn't using alcohol because that campaign worked. Why aren't they working on mindful cannabis consumption? Opposed to using fear. And that's what I'm saying about orchestration. I thoroughly believe that alcohol makes more money, but it costs society more, you know? Cannabis actually gives society more money. The economic developments of cannabis in our society is actually on the surplus. The economic dollars of alcohol cost us more than alcohol gives us. So why are two premiers fighting over alcohol and ignoring cannabis? I think that's orchestrated.

Trevor:  Fair enough.

Kirk:  Through stigma.

Trevor:  Fair enough, but back to Skunk Works and getting all the other, trying to get big companies interested in natural products. Any other thoughts about that before we wrap this one up?

Kirk:  Yeah, I think one of the problems David is having is how do you patent a plant, right? This is the other thing, is that everything's lumped under cannabis or marijuana, opposed to the components. That was the other I wanted to mention is that as a biochemist, I liked how he refers to cannabis by compounds.

Trevor:  Well, I'm gonna answer that a little bit. You don't necessarily have to, because back to one of the examples we talked about Red Bull, like Red Bull's magic ingredient is Taurine. That was sort of, they found Taurine plus caffeine, so it gave you a better buzz for a longer period of time. That's simplifying, but close enough. And, you know, Taurin, Latin Taurus, looks like a bull. We should make the company Red Bull. That is sort of their whole thing. Patent taurine. You know, Kirk Nyquist could make a Taurine containing thing tomorrow.

Kirk:  Okay.

Trevor:  So there, you don't, in pharmaceutical world, you really want that patent and there, there are ways, and I'm not an expert, but there are ways of patenting like how you extract it and so on. It's not, I agree, it's not as straightforward as you know in prescription pharmaceutical world you usually find a molecule, you patent it, you turn it into a medication. You might not be able to patent the cannabinoid or the terpene or the alkaloid but if you were sort of first to market with it in a soap, a shampoo, a whatever, maybe you don't and I'm again not an expert but maybe you don't need to because there's definitely been examples of you know it. Well, again, Taurine, it is in Red Bull, Red Bull first. No one else seems to care that, you know, someone else comes along later and goes to me too. So there's that and there is patentable stuff around how stuff is extracted. So I still think there's a good business case to be made for some of these bigger companies to get some natural products out there as a competitive event.

Kirk:  But it makes you wonder why they haven't done it already.

Trevor:  I'm again I'm leaning towards stigma and momentum. There's just not a push to do it. But you know let's say again I think Red Bull should give me some money for this but I'm going to keep going back to Red Bull. Let's say Red Bull does come out with the next big thing and it's got that it's, got a magic terpene in it that you know everybody loves. Don't you think if suddenly Red Bull's market share was pulling away because they had terpene X in it, that PepsiCo would be the next one and if you got a company sort of on the natural products bandwagon that got a runaway success, I think tonnes of people would want to be next. So I'm thinking they hopefully, FOMO, basically FOMA, if one guy does a real good job, it will bring the rest to the table.

Kirk:  Well, I wish them luck, I hope it happens. Hey, an observation I made watching the hockey game, the Canadian jerseys, I swear to God, the silhouette inside the maple leaf is a sativa leaf. I swear God.

Trevor:  Did you look at that? You mentioned that, I haven't looked yet, but let's assume that is true. Is this a sativa leaf? Let's assume there's a cannabis leaf inside the maple leaf and that's what's going to bring home the gold.

Kirk:  I think so and maybe break the stigma, you know cannabis is a plant and oh that was the other thing I was going to say is that we need to separate the plant from the isolate from the components and that's what I like about what he's doing.

Yeah, David mentioned that a few times and I 100% agree, you know, it doesn't make sense to have a plant be in schedule one. You know, should be the compounds. But...

Kirk:  Especially spelt with an H.

Trevor:  Especially spilt with an h. So, I think that was another good one. Thank you again David for chatting with us. I've been Trevor Schufeld, I'm the pharmacist.

Kirk:  And I'm Kirk Nyquist, a registered nurse for Reefer Medness - The Podcast found with all the socials, reefermed.ca. Give us a rating on your podcast provider so we can get our numbers out there. We've often said Meta does not promote our program. You can find us in social media. If a friend finds us, it's because you pushed it to them. So, yeah.

Trevor:  Talk to everyone later. Go Canada, go!