Episode Transcript

Rene: Welcome back to Reefer Medness - The Podcast. I'm Rene. I am back here in the studio. This is part two of an interview Trevor did with Daniel Bear, who's a cannabis expert, talking about harm reduction. And so why don't we get right into it? Here's Trevor with Daniel Bear.

Trevor: And how about just plain taxation? The thing we hear complaints about is just, not every just pot shop or massive grow up thought they were gonna get rich. All the provinces seem to have thought they were going to get rich, and I suppose federal government too, off of cannabis. The amount of tax, I forget what the percentage is anymore, but for every dollar you spend on cannabis, an enormous, large amount of that goes just to pay taxes. If you cut the taxes in half, many, many stores and producers would suddenly become much more profitable. Have we hit the right balance? Is that still a work in progress? So our government, it seems like an easy fix to just reduce those taxes a bit.

Daniel Bear: Yeah, and you know that's the main argument I hear in talking with folks in industry is that, you know, it's time to reduce the excise tax in particular, although they'd like to see a more widespread than just the excised tax. You know, I know there's been discussions around changes about province by province tax stamps. You know it's a really tough question there. I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, tying it to the dollar per gram minimum for the excised tax. It failed to account for how prices would drop after legalization, which is something that is held true in every US state and every other jurisdiction that's legalized. Colorado was the sort of primary example, and I know the task force went to Colorado when they were looking at legalization. Colorado experienced significant price drops in cannabis within the first two years of legalization, not dissimilar to how Canada has seen continued price drops. I mean legalization, we were looking at like $12 a gram and now we're at like four, there's, you know, that's not surprising. And so that the percentage of that, that cost that is now going to taxes just continue to increase. And, so tying the, the, or reducing the minimum from dollar pre gram might be a possible way to improve the financial stability of the market. And we do need that, right? We need a stable cannabis market. And if we're going with a commercialized capitalist approach to cannabis. Then you need to have some stability there for the people who are in that industry if you don't want us to slide back into people going to the illicit market. And we've been very successful at capturing people from the illicit market, but if the local store no longer exists, if the prices can't continue to compete with the illitit market then people might not stick around with that. They do like the quality of the product, although we know that there is some THC inflation. We know that there are some issues in production sometimes, but thankfully we've been pretty stable on ensuring, you know, we're keeping out certain, uh, you, know, growth regulators and things like that. But people aren't focusing on that. They're focusing on price and availability. And if those things go away, then we risk having people go back to the illicit market. And the illicit market is, is frankly a dangerous place for people to be purchasing their cannabis.

Trevor: And it sounds like more expensive, which is, I hadn't thought of, but that's yet another good argument for the legal market.

Daniel Bear: Yeah, and when you were talking about taxation overall, it can't be disentangled from the larger elements around it. But it does play such a key role. And I hear industry saying, we need to change the excise tax. We need to the excised tax. And that will help them assuredly in some ways. But I think that they can't simply call for uh financial improvements to their situation without also having to answer some questions about the the high THC that's there and so i i suspect what we might see long term is that there's a bit of a negotiation informally between the limitations on THC uh in some products and some consumers uh and the changes in taxation policy. You know, if we look at Germany people under 21 in Germany are limited to cannabis products that are 10% THC maximum. And to be honest, I think that's actually a pretty good idea. I think it'd be, you know, the horses left the barn potentially here in Canada, but it's not a bad policy. We know, as I said earlier, the risks around cannabis, you know, for an adult, like, you know, like me, who's every once in a while having a little bit of cannabis, a very, you kinow an infrequent consumer. You know, it's, it's very minimal risks, particularly as I tend not to be a smoker. So I'm not, you kow, using combusted products. But we do know that, you know, high THC, as I said, particularly for young brains, but overall, It does have direct correlation with substance use disorder, although some of those measures don't take into account medical use, as you're aware. But we need to think about how we're actually approaching this product as a whole plant, and as the end results that are coming out of a production process that businesses are trying to keep themselves afloat and government is trying to protect people's well-being.

Trevor: Okay. And before we run out of time, I want to talk about a bot you're working on, but I just want to squeeze in one more thing before we get to the bot. So we've been talking about the smokeables, maybe the THC levels getting a little too high, but edibles, there, you know, many, many people have complained to us and others that the 10 milligram maximum on edibles is not doing it for them, it's not working. What's going on with edibles and the fact we've, you know, where we almost seem to be limitless, you can put in a smokeable, but the edible, there seems to be a relatively low limit.

Daniel Bear: Yeah. And let's not forget, you know, if you have a product that is considered a non-food edible, some of the mints or stuff that I've seen or some of, you know, the oils, you can have, you know, incredibly high amounts of THC. I forget the exact number right now. So I think there's a lot going on there. First, you know, there are some people that do need high levels of TH C and an edible. You know, I started my career working with medical cannabis patients at the Women's Alliance for Medical Marijuana. And those people had lupus and cancer and HIV and a variety of things where they really needed relatively high doses of THC to get through the day. And I totally appreciate that. And even non-medical patients, there are people who've got a tolerance or other needs that I have to teach see but I think there's also an element here if you're buying very high levels of THC from the illicit market you're not always necessarily getting that you might think you need that thirty milligrams edible but actually you are only getting ten milligrams and there's a huge psychosomatic email element to any drugs use right. We come down to a lot of set and setting what are you expecting from the drug and so i think theres an element there. I would agree that I think the 10 milligram limit is problematic. I do like now to see that there's now multiple packaging allowed, multiple 10 milligram packaging allowed in there, because I think that that does help negate some of the cost. We know that some of highest cost elements of an edible is the packaging itself. The actual production cost on a gummy with five milligrams of THC is a couple cents. And so if we can help bring that cost down, that'll bring over, I think, a lot of people from the illicit market while we're still ensuring that those containers that they're in are child safe and child proof, and that we can do more education around protecting individuals. I know we've seen a spike, particularly in kids going to emergency departments since legalization. We don't know what products they're getting their hands on, whether that's illicit or licit. I'll tell you, you know, my wife and I both struggled to open an Edibles package. So I do suspect that some of those poisonings are potentially.

Trevor: I'm a pharmacist. I deal with child proof containers every day and I don't know what magic they put on those ziplock slides but they are not easy.

Daniel Bear: You know, they are, they're definitely complicated. And it's, um, it's one of the things where it's like credit to you. This is child proof and adult proof. That's good.

Trevor: So a bot, a little bit off camera, we talked about a bot. I really want to slide this in before we run out of time with you. So you were talking a little about a new project you are working on. I'm just going to leave it there and let you sort of introduce that to the folks.

Daniel Bear: Yeah, so a lot of my work's been on cannabis education. And one of the big challenges is that people find most of the information out there problematic. As you mentioned earlier, it starts with sort of, here are the harms around cannabis. And even if the education materials do then transition to, and here's what you can do about it, which too few of them do, there's not a lot resources. And we can't write every answer for every question that people might have out there. So I've just been fooling around on a cannabis education chatbot, that is. Um, taught to employ the ideas of mindful consumption and benefit maximization as part of its response. And so it, it delivers information from that mindset of asking you about mindfulness, what are your intentions, here's how to get the best possible experience and the safest experience. So I'm just fooling around with it now. I'm probably going to launch it in the next week or so. Um, and, um, you know, it's just, uh, it, uh it's totally, I, I'm not a very techie person. And I'll see you next time. But thanks to AI and a lot of YouTube videos and some guidance, I've got a functioning model. I was testing it last night. I sent the link to a couple of friends and it did say a couple things where I was like, whoa, OK, bot, you're a little bit off there. Let's change some of this. But otherwise, it's been doing pretty well. And it asks you like, you know, if you ask it a question, it's really focused on your intention around your consumption and thinking about how you can have the best possible and safest experience around there. So I'm really excited for it. I think it's a new way to deliver cannabis education content and hopefully something that people will find engaging and useful. And you know I am doing full transparency. I do have the questions that people ask and the response that the bot gives get sent to me. So I can collect that data and see sort of and fine tune that information, but I'm also really interested, you know, my contact info is on the website. And so people can respond to that as well. And it's just through my consulting side hustle, responsive consulting, our website is very simple, but it's useful. And I'm sure I'll send you the link to make sure you can post it with the podcast there. And, I'll be sending it out on LinkedIn in the next probably week yourself. It's perfect.

Trevor: Yeah, by the time you're hearing this listeners, the bot will be live. We will definitely have links at the bottom Oh and because everyone will ask does the bot have a name. Do you have a cute name for it yet?

Daniel Bear: Not yet, not yet. Right now it's just called Canvas Education Chatbot, but I have been thinking about that it needs a better name. Something that people can refer to it. So I'm going to, it's actually on my list of to do for today is to think of some cutesy names and then if I can't think of anything to ask AI to put forward a couple suggestions there.

Trevor: That is fantastic. Daniel, this as usual has been really fascinating. I've enjoyed it all. Anything else I forgot to ask that you think we should get in before we run out of time?

Daniel Bear: No, I'll just say, you know what, just remember the salad dressing analogy.

Trevor: I really like that one. The vinegar on my arugula it wouldn't be so good.

Daniel Bear: No, it's like arugala. It's totally tart.

Trevor: Yeah, the vinegar on like baby spinach then. Yeah, I don't really like arougala. Yeah. All right. Thank you, Daniel.

Trevor: Yeah, it sounds good, but it never comes out the way I want. Alright, thank you very much, Daniel. Kirk, I'm sure you have thoughts especially on the instead of doing harm reduction actually talking about benefits of cannabis what did you think about that sort of mindset the MCBM, mindful consumption benefit maximization.

Kirk: Well, I share with him my usefulness in consuming cannabis as a youth. I also have consumed cannabis out of a tin can, an apple, a toilet paper roll, any which way we could find a way to put flower into something and inhale it. Been there, done that. So that made me smile when he talked about that. I think the marketplace has changed since I was a youthful consumer of cannabis. So I am I am all over this Trevor. I think mindful consumption and the benefits of using cannabis is topical and hot. And yeah, I enjoyed the conversation. You know, we have often discussed cannabis overdose. And yes, I always seem to lose the argument when I say, stop using the terminology overdose. I lose that argument all the time. I thoroughly believe that people do not overdose on cannabis. I think they overuse THC. And I think we need to change the terminology, and I think Daniel Baer is on the same page as I am. We need to look at how much THC is being consumed.

Trevor: Yeah, no, I agree. Now, we won't rehash overdose, but I especially liked what you and I have talked before about, you know, our personal experience with some of these really high dose THC stuff, and neither of us were a big fan. But I also really liked him mentioning a few times that are coming up that under 21 in Germany, they have to be less than 10% THC. Like you said, in Canada, that horse may have left the barn, but I thought that was just an interesting thing that they're doing in other places. But yeah, the whole market, the whole cannabis market is tight margins. There's not a lot of room for profit. And the belief amongst cannabis growers and sellers right now is basically the higher the THC they offer, the more profit they're going to make. True or not, I like the fact that Daniel's trying to trying to convince people that that might not be what they should be looking for. And I really liked his salad dressing analogy of, you wouldn't put just vinegar on your greens because it wouldn't taste as good as if you mix it with a few other things.

Kirk: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah the salad analogy is wonderful. It's also the coffee analogy is wonderful. I was on I was on the computer today looking at looking at posts and reading about cannabis and one of our past guests, Kieley Beaudry, posted on LinkedIn about how Alberta is making the most money off cannabis in Canada through taxation. And I responded to her and I think I think what we have to do, and it's not just the medical field, because as a registered nurse I speak as a nurse, but also as someone that has spent some time studying, researching, observing, looking at the rec market. And I sometimes wonder if the rec markets not doing itself a disservice. And I think we've got to stop looking at cannabis as a substance of misuse. The government, the Trudeau government, that they were creating this law called the Cannabis Act using the learning they got from tobacco and alcohol abuse. And there's no question alcohol and tobacco has destroyed lives. There's no questions about that. Its research is documented. Everybody agrees. Yet, you know, four out of five doctors recommended Camel cigarettes or Chesterfield cigarettes back in the 50s. So we have learned, right? We've learned that tobacco is not recommended by doctors anymore. But for us to continue after seven years, and yes, seven years is not a long time, but we have to remember that cannabis has been part of societies for a millennium. And I think it's time the government starts reviewing the cost of cannabis to society and is cannabis still should we still consider cannabis a substance of misuse because really the cost to society is little like there's very little money costing us as society because people have started consuming cannabis The whole THC thing, yeah, yeah. Come on, man. We don't need we don't need a spliff in recreational markets that high. We don't I mean, we don't sell Everclear in Canada for a reason, right? As far as I know, we don't sell Everclear in Canada. Not in Manitoba anyway.

Trevor: At best of my knowledge, we don't, and for you Canadians, that's basically pure alcohol that you can buy in the U.S., but can't buy here. But even if you care that cannabis is a substance of misuse or not, even from the business point of view, a few things that I thought was very interesting, talking about, yeah, It was sort of set up, the whole thing was set up with the best buy approach of selling weed versus a public health approach where you're trying to protect the public and it's mesh that well you know you so things need to be tweaked here because we know and Daniel mentioned a couple times even the cost to consumers has gone down since legalization so legalization get basically it's cheaper weed to consumers but if cheaper if the legal market fails like you know the stores can't afford to pay their employees the producers can't to play their employees. Because and I'm simplifying it a bit but but because so much of the money is actually going to taxes then you know then that we don't have a successful legal market anymore and then you know we're going back to the bad old days of illegal weed which you know there is far less control so even if all you care about is the safety point of view keeping a healthy market marketplace. Is good and, you know, one thing that might help with that is changing taxes.

Kirk: Completely agree, but we're not going to change taxation until we educate and until we inform people. Nurses, doctors, the healthcare profession has to recognize that really cannabis is misunderstood, right? And I go back to the whole cannabis overdose or people having anxieties because they're consuming cannabis. And what people have to recognize is cannabis is but the plant. And not the components this the the different cannabinoids in the plant there's so much more to understand. In the in the article you talk about and compare alcohol and you know we walk into a liquor store and we can buy creamed alcohols we can find low alcohol beers we can find high alcoholic beers. People got a variety of choices in a liquor mart. Cannabis is the same thing, but what's lacking is that alcohol is alcohol is alcohol is alcohol. Cannabis is not that way. A cannabis product is not the same as an alcohol product. There are so many more things within that product that need to be educated. So maybe using the analogy of the German model, maybe government should tax high THC products because the high THC product are what's causing the anxiety, what's the paranoia possibly. You know, a lot of people will say to me, you know Kirk, I don't do cannabis because it just puts me to sleep. And I say to them, well it's not the cannabis putting you to sleep, it's the fact that you've maybe got an old product and the THC has converted to CBNs or maybe you bought the wrong product. So I think the industry has to learn to educate. The problem with that, Trevor, is of course we've got that cannabis act, which is very restrictive. However if you choose to educate rather than promote cannabis, I think there's a way around the Cannabis Act. I think if companies learn to educate people on the cannabinoids, and if they use someone like a nurse or a pharmacist to help them, you know, and maybe this is the appropriate time to refer people to our blog page, because if you go to our page, reefermed.ca, you'll find six public service announcements that we produced with the help of the cannabis industry, right? So we produce education on cannabis to help people understand the product. Daniel Bear is completely on mark here. The problem is not cannabis. The problem is how people use cannabis and the problem is that the industry needs to do things create more money, therefore hefting up the THC which is dangerous and God did I say that cannabis can be dangerous I don't often say that but high THC products are dangerous I think I told you in one of my road trips. I found a thousand milligram cookie in a in a rec shop but that wasn't recreational cannabis that was medicinal cannabis i'm sorry people but there's no reason in my mind anybody should be swallowing Everclear by the ounce and there's not reason why anybody should swallow a thousand milligram Cookie for recreation, you know, so I think Daniel Bears right on the mark

Trevor: For recreation and absolutely but we should say because he mentioned a few times it's worth some people for medicinal reasons do need higher doses of THC so it's not that they shouldn't be available. Two just little things that I really liked because it comes up every so often about you know children ending up in the emergency room after consuming mom or dad's edibles and that's I'm not saying that's good you know no one's having a good day when that happens but Daniel made a really good point that I just hadn't thought of is do we know if that came from the legal or illegal market because the the childproof containers in the legal market are really good like literally if you've never opened one even their literal Ziploc bags are hard to open. So you know just thoughts on you know what the kids got. We don't know, we're speculating, but you know, just the child proof packaging in the legal market is very good.

Kirk: Its senior proof.

Trevor: It's everybody proof. They are hard to open. But the other is the chat bot we mentioned right at the end does have a name now. The chat bot is Herbie and that is the helpful education benefit maximization tool. So Herbie, the chatbot. I played with it a little bit. It's kind of fun. We'll have links to it in the show notes.

Kirk: I need to jump back to a comment you just made about there is a place for a thousand milligram cookie. But if I'm going to make a political comment, not in a rec shop. Now let me qualify that statement. We know that Health Canada does not support the medical market very well. We know that it's very cumbersome for people to get their medicine through the online system. Therefore, they go to rec shops. So another thing government can consider rather than tax the hell out of all cannabis products, taxed high THC products, but also allow dispensaries to have a medical counter. So that if you are a medical user, you can access your weed easily from a medical counter that has the thousand milligram cookie there. But don't be buying those thousand, well actually sorry, you cant buy it now in the legal rec market, you cannot buy it. But it's available in Aboriginal communities from my experience. So anyways, I think Daniel bears right on key with his harm reduction. The mindful consumption. I think that's in my in my elder years. I would like to think I'm more mindful with my consumption I am a I do consume most of my own medicinally grown homegrown. So I'm a poor representative when it comes to going to a rec store. But yeah, anyways, I thought it was good story, Trevor

Trevor: Yeah, no, I really liked it. Thank you again, Daniel, because it will have a look below in the show notes for things like links to the Herbie chat bot. And yeah, thanks, Daniel. That was great. I think this was another good one.