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E78 - Buyer Beware; Buyer Bewildered

Do you have a favourite craft cannabis flower? Are you getting what you think you ordered? Think again. While attending the Calgary Hempfest, Kirk and Trevor gathered five Micro Cultivation License holders (plus a surprise cameo contributor!) to discuss the recreational cannabis retail space. The conversation revealed a complicated system of regulations, policies, and red tape which affect their ability to build brand loyalty. Although these passionate growers produce excellent weed, it is surprisingly difficult for their high quality, small batch, hand trimmed product to reach you, the consumer. Packaging, sale by lottery, and ambiguously named SKU's are some of the many convoluted rules of the game. Kirk and Trevor ponder whether the current recreational cannabis system actually prevents us from properly understanding the cannabis product we are purchasing, and how small cannabis producers might eventually break even.

Episode Transcript

Rene: Reefer Medness - The Podcast would like to acknowledge that we produce our shows on treaty to territory and homeland of the Metis. We pay our respects to the First Nations and Metis ancestors of this land, and we reaffirm our relationships. 

Trevor: Kirk. So, we had lots and lots and lots of lots of really interesting conversations in Calgary. But this one "A" has to be one of my favorites, but "B" has to be one of the most idea dense interviews you've ever done. Like, I like to think I have a lot of idea dense things when I interview, you know, scientists and researchers and stuff, but I have a whole page full of notes and that is only scratching the surface of what you and I know. What are we calling the Alberta Craft Cannabis Panel talk talked about? So, give us a setup. What and who were you talking to and what were we talking about? 

Kirk: Well, exactly. Let's set this up. So, back in September, you and I met in Calgary and went to the Cannabis Expo and did walk around and picked up a whole lot of stories, which I guess the next several episodes from here will be from Calgary. And that's not to say that we're not into Manitoba stories. It just happened to be that we were in Alberta for these stories, So, hopefully we'll pick up some stories in Manitoba soon as well. But this this particular story, this goes back to the to my quest to understand the recreational cannabis industry in the sense of what is craft and what is just cannabis. And So, to set this one up, Kieley Beaudry, friend of Reefer Medness - The Podcast helped us gather up a group of people who are all craft brewers. Now in Calgary Expo, it's like any Expo or any conference you go from table to table. At the Expo, I think there were four Craft growers or small-time growers and then we picked up a guy on the way as we were talking. So, we got five growers and ironically, they mentioned, they mentioned one company that we just couldn't connect with. So, they weren't involved and they were sort of, I guess, Ogen and they were the bigger of all of them. But yeah, So, we've got five people here, audience, I'm going to ask you, I don't know about you, Trevor, but we had this conversation, what, six weeks ago and yesterday I went back to the interview and listened to it, and I had to listen to it again, taking my dog for a walk, because like you said, there is a lot happening in this conversation. 

Trevor: Like I said, idea dense. But my two thoughts is this idea dense like, you know... Holy crap, I had no idea there is that much going on in craft cannabis, and the other is "bureaucracy." Like bureaucracy, bureaucracy, red tape, bureaucracy. Those those were just kind of overwhelming. 

Kirk: Well, we have we have Distinct cannabis Mark. We have Alberta Bud Tim. We have Indigro Rob. We have Devon, which is Canalief. And of course, Kieley, which is Parkland Flower. And it's almost like, it's like it's almost like the conversation had been going for like an hour and a half before I turned on the microphone because it was like, BAM, we're in it. And to be honest with you, I didn't realize, like, I'm in this conversation going, where do I take it? Because the original question is, Hey guys, here's a simple question "Where's craft cannabis going to be in five years" right? And the interesting thing is, I posed the same similar question to Derek Ewaskiw who we listened to in Small Town Alberta episode because I was in small town, Alberta Lac La Biche as well. And I interview Derek and I asked him, where will retail cannabis be in five years? So, this was going to be sort of an amalgam of visionaries, right? Well. 

Trevor: Oh, and after throw it in there, just before I forget, we also had a cameo kind of in the middle of this conversation, we had Jacqui Childs. What are we going to call Jacqui a cannabis woman about town, friend of the podcast. 

Kirk: Influencer. 

Trevor: She's got her fingers. If its cannabis related in Canada, Jacqui seems to be around. So, you know, So, in this one we will instead of calling her a grower, we'll call her an interested and informed consumer. And she sort of threw the question out to the group about farm gate kind of in the middle So, that other female voice, I'm sorry, probably didn't do great about identifying all the voices all the time. But if you you know the one female voice that comes loud and clear as Kieley, but in the middle, another female voice jumps in, Well, that's Jacqui Childs, because, you know, now we do cameos. 

Kirk: The thing here I am. I don't know what you got written down, but there's a couple of things I want to pick up before we start the conversation. And then I got a whole lot of stuff to go through after after the audience listens to it. But a couple of things that like, I'm not in resale but a SKU, right, Stock Keeping Units, they mentioned, they mentioned SKU in here and basically a SKU is any product that's been that gets sold, has a Stock Keeping Unit. So, if a cannabis producer wants to put out a three gram of Kush or a six gram of Kush, each of those have a SKU, right? Yes. 

Trevor: Yes. 

Kirk: So, that's that's important to know that and that's a limitation for craft growers. The other thing I found very interesting about this conversation is "sell by lottery.". 

Trevor: Yeah. 

Kirk: This is one. This is another word for people to pick up as they go. And the other thing is about where is Cannabis going to be in five years? I don't know if they know where it's going to be in six months. So, I don't know. What do you have any notes before we start the conversation? 

Trevor: Yeah, no. I've got lots for afterwards. But yeah, you know, first, as you know, I'm in pharmacy. So, in pharmacies, if we don't make money, we don't exist. This is a bunch of people who are passionate about what they do and they all saying. "And by the way, we're not making a profit." Oh, that's not good. And yeah, So, yeah, you mentioned SKUs you mentioned. Every business has its red tape, you know, that just goes with business. And, you know, probably the pharmacy has lots red tape. I'm sure if you were selling liquor in Alberta, you have lots of red tape for running Casino Alberta, So, those are kind of lumped together, but it just from the from an outsider's point of view, they seem to have an unreasonable amount of red tape and now, yes, the whole cannabis thing, it's early, but it sure sounds like if we could have, well, we'll throw this out to you, provincial regulators, if you're listening. If a province in Canada decided to get rid of a whack of red tape, you should be able to get a whole bunch of craft cannabis growers in your province  and that's a bunch of jobs and money and and and and and by just taking an ax to the red tape. But you know, let's let's let these people talk about the red tape because that's what they they focus on. 

Kirk: You raise an interesting question here, a comment, and again on my notes I wanted to raise it. Craft cannabis consumers. Let's walk through a little bit of the process here. Back in 2018, we were legalized, but the government, the federal government, set up a very open regulation and Act saying that we will allow cannabis to be to be legal. And here are the steps you have to go to be a Licensed Producer. Then the provinces took the regulations and say OK, this is how we will now manage it, and this is how we will now sell it. So, growers have to go through, have to go through federal legislation and also provincial legislation. And they and they seem to conflict and remember the goal of the federal government was to get the criminals out of cannabis sales. So, with that in mind, let's listen to our craft cannabis panel in Alberta and see what they say about this. 

Mark: Mark Horgan, President, Distinct Cannabis. 

Tim: Tim Mallet, CEO of Alberta Bud. 

Rob: Rob Wilcox, President of Indigro Organics Inc. 

Devon: And Devin Davidson, President of Cannalief. 

Kieley: Kieley Beaudry, CEO of Parkland Flower. 

Kirk: Right on guys. OK, guys, you all know the question. Essentially, this is an Alberta Craft Grower panel here, but I guess I'm interested in your opinions. What are the issues and where is craft growers going in five years and feel free to just talk on each other and just go for it that don't go first? 

Devon: I think what's going to be really important is for the companies that are growing in that space to be able to package their own product, being able to have oversight over that whole process, right to the... 

Rob: And having access to the retail market somehow. 

Devon: That will be an important part too.

Kirk: In Alberta now, how do you get access to the resale business? 

Rob: We don't. This is really the problem. We grow. We sell to another wholesaler who does whatever they want with our product and in and then tries to sell it in the open market. We don't have access, 

Kirk: They sell it on your logo, though don't they 

Rob: not necessarily 

Kirk: President's choice is that where we are at? 

Rob: Essentially. 

Devon: You have these brokers that come in really control the price in the market for anybody that doesn't have a sales amendment and direct access into the retail side.  We're confined to selling bulk products to another grower or a larger company that 

Rob: we have to sell it to the enemy. Frankly, I think it's the LPs literally buy our bulk flower and do what they want with it and have a nasty habit to driving the price down. Do you agree with me on that? 

Tim: I have a small. I finally got the listing, So, I understand the process now. Yeah, there's some bullying going on for sure, which is a little bit nerve wracking and they control the pricing, which, I want to control my own pricing. But yeah, no, it's it's a challenge for sure, and I'm just happy to get a listing and get my feet wet in the industry.

Kirk: What's that mean? A listing? 

Tim: So, I got a listing with Alberta Gaming and Liquor Commission 

Kirk: So, you can sell directly to them. 

Tim: Oh, I can't. I don't have a sales license, So, I have to go through a distributor joint venture of Salmon Arm BC. They're going to take us to market and be responsible for that product.

Kirk: Under your logo. 

Kieley: Under our logo, though, they're going to put it under our logo. And that was it my condition. And but I'm I don't know, everyone has on their own two feet in this situation, but it is a challenge. You have to work, you have to play nice with other companies. 

Kirk: But from what you just said, if you're growing as a micro grower your small operation selling it to a large LP. Is there a craft industry in Alberta then? Like, I mean, your bud is not a craft, bud then. 

Rob: Well, the bud craft, we grow high quality bud, but we again, we're trying to fill... We maybe grow 15 to 25 kilos a month. Right? 

Kirk: OK. 

Rob: So, that's not very much that's a rounding figure for most of the LP. So, if they're trying to fill a SKU, yours either, right? Yeah. And of certain THC content or Terpene profile, they're looking for a profile whatever it is, they'll take my stuff and blend it was someone else's stuff and package it off and sell it at 3.5 to whoever under someone else's name. 

Kirk: I find that. So, what would they call it? Like Hindu Kush? 

Kieley: So, in defense of some of these licensed producers, every time SKU goes to market with the AGLC, there's a cost associated with that. So, every SKU cost is $1500 to get a SKU in. You can't change that SKU. You can't change the format, you can't change the size, you can't change what the cultivar is. So, a lot of LPs, what they've been doing is when they make that SKU, they'll make an umbrella SKU, they'll they'll call it like. So, for example, when Parkland Flower put out there, when we put out our two pre-rolls, we did Fresh and Flavor at just a neutral name. And So, that way we could put whatever cultivar underneath that and still have that listed on the on the packaging, but you can't actually list that on the on the website. And So, a lot of processors just make these sort of neutral SKU. Sometimes it's a SKU that'll say Maui Wowie, but the product you're actually getting is like a Sour Diesel. So, you know. 

Kirk: That's not fair. 

Kieley: It's not 

Kirk: How do you build loyalty; brand loyalty? 

Kieley: It's very difficult, but it's because of the way the the policy, the framework that has been put into place by a lot of people who do not understand the cannabis industry, like the the actual plant and how it's grown and how it needs to get to market and how to reach consumers. 

Kirk: Is this an Alberta centric? 

Rob: No this is a federal thing, 

Kieley: but it's not necessarily just a federal thing. It's it's also well, that's the other thing is that on the federal side, you have to have an NNCP, which is a Notice of New Cannabis Products. So, new cannabis product. So, if I put out if I put out Apricot Dream in 3.5 grams, I have to do a Notice of New Cannabis Product that takes 60 days to get that approved. If I change it to an ounce bag, I have to put in a new notice, right? So, there's no it really hinders the nimbleness that small producers normally are. And, you know, like we're nimble like we can, we can kind of change and pivot. It really is sort of structured to large corporations that have a lot more money, a lot more backing and a lot more volume than we do. It's just not. It'd be different if you know, for us, it cost $100 to get a SKU in and a large producer that's putting that volume in to get that in as well. But then even when we get our sales licenses, then there's there's So, many costs on top of that. We're currently in Ontario. In Ontario, we have to have $15 million in recall insurance that costs about $75,000 annually. So, that's. It's ludicrous, so, So, $75,000. Like, I'm not even profiting, I am actually paying the OCS to sell my product at this point. And So, it's just, you know, that's why a lot of Micro's are struggling. A lot have gone under already. There's acquisitions happening and it's it's really just not a small, business friendly environment. You know, and everyone is like, Oh, we're going to get more growers to transition while they're scared shitless. 

Rob: Yeah, the transition portion of that is. 

Tim: Should be scared shitless. 

Rob: The transition for us now. Why would you transition?

Kirk: from legacy from legacy to to legal? 

Rob: Yeah, I don't even know what legacy means. 

Kirk: Well, it's a nice way of saying the silver, gray markets. So, this isn't helping us get off the black market is it? 

Rob: No, it's encouraging the black market, frankly. 

Kirk: Interesting. 

Kieley: And then the excise duty on top of that, like, I mean, when the excise duty and then also markups, not just not the provinces, I have to say AGLC is one of the they're they're better on the fact that they don't markup our product when it goes to retailers. Where they get us is the excise duty. So, they have 16.8 percent excise duty in comparison to an extra 3.9 percent excise duty that Ontario does. However, Ontario has a sliding scale of markup, So, they might get a product and they're like, Oh, this is going to be really popular, we're going to put a 55 percent markup. So, sometimes the OSC is actually making more money per gram than the farmer. And that's, you know, So, it's not just predatory licensed producers because they're getting hit just as much as we are, it is what's coming out of the provinces and not to speak ill of the provinces and those and that as well, because a lot of that is policy that, you know, like when I'm dealing with a category manager, these folks, they they're saying the same things. They're like, we're sorry, like they're apologetic. Sometimes they're like, We're sorry, we have to go around, we have to do this. 

Mark: You even get a SKU, you know, you get offered a SKU in Alberta, you know, and they say, we want to retail they we want it. Why can't I decide my retail price? But they're giving us 39.99 retail. OK, I'll take it. B.C. comes back the same SKU. We're going to offer you 31.99 retail. I'm like, Well, what the fuck is that all about, you know? And and on top of it, my next harvest, my test results go up, say they call twenty seven percent. Do I get a raise? No, we locked in at this price. I don't want it. I won't sell at that price, especially if I am increasing my numbers. 

Rob: It doesn't cost you any more or less to grow. Twenty-nine or twenty-one. 

Mark: Yeah, yeah. All right. No, true. But why can't I get a raise when my numbers, Because they're basing on those numbers. I wanted to my price to increase, but it's almost like they get to play with all the rules and they get to turn the rules in their favor when they want to. So, it's So, 

Devon: They have made THC into such a commodity and they charge more if it's 29 percent and it doesn't matter if you're growing 21 or 29 or 23 or 15. 

Mark: Well, I'd love to just say, let me stand on my own two feet. If I decide to go down with the ship at 50 bucks, then I go down with the ship and I'll take my product back. But that's not an option. 

Devon: Absolutely, as the farmer, you should have every right to do so. 

Kirk: Yeah, OK, So, guys, you haven't answered my question. Well, in in five years? What are you going to be the next six months? 

Rob: I mean, what is how confident are you in farm gate. 

Kieley: In Alberta? While they are very much So, as much as they were gung ho and they went ahead with legalization, and then there was a change in government and these this change in government has not been as responsive to cannabis as the previous government that came in with legalization. And So, either there's going to be a change in government or they're going to wake up like it's it has to be one or the other. 

Rob: But but having said all of that, retail sales are still very strong. 

Kieley: Retail sales are super strong. But what I'm saying is is that this government is not going to look at this government is a lot more conservative, obviously. So, they are looking to the other one are the other provinces doing now? Whereas the previous government wasn't looking at what other provinces were doing, they decided to make their own framework. And that's why we had five hundred stores and Ontario had twenty-five stores, you know, when early legalization. So, it's just been it's been a total change in the framework. I sent out letters on behalf of the Alberta Cannabis Micro License Association to all the MPs, the ones that really look over the cannabis file, which is Travis Tay's of the for finance. I sent one to municipalities. I sent letters out to all of them. Did I get a response?

Rob: Not one. 

Kieley: Not one about cannabis. Granted, right now, since these folks are drowning in COVID. It's like they're dealing with like this is not something that's on their priority list. We're a drop in the bucket, So, we have to keep advocating. We have to keep pushing forward and we have to be bringing them the information. What's going on in other provinces right now? B.C. literally on Thursday just announced that they're going to do direct to retail. So, if you have a sales amendment, you can sell directly to a retailer. I can. If I come out with a 25 kilogram lots and you are licensed to sell in B.C., I can sell 25 cases to one retail chain in B.C., directly You cannot do that anywhere else. Other than, 

Jacqui: Farm Gate, can we talk about that for a second. 

Kieley: That's what we're talking about right now. 

Jacqui: That's like, wouldn't that help is that the hope?

Kieley: Farm gate would be amazing right now. What the government is saying is that you guys can do farm gate. You have to build a store, you have to build a store just like any other retail store. So, basically, you'd have to do an entirely new business model. 

Rob: But you're not allowed to own it though. Another corporate entity has to own it. You can't be a grower and own a store. 

Kieley: In Alberta you can. 

Rob: as another corporate entity. 

Tim: Yeah. that lawyer fuck wad. 

Kirk: We have a lawyer here. 

Tim: Kieley is right

Kieley: If a cultivator has a facility, they can build a store next door or on their property, but they have to build out an entire store. But they cannot be in the same building. 

Tim: And you can't have the word Alberta in the store name in Alberta, which is a challenge for Alberta Bud.

Kieley:  So, yeah, So, true Farm Gate is when customers can come directly to your facility and purchase your product out the door. 

Kirk: Because currently, as I understand, Alberta, if you do have a store, you can't just carry one person's product. You have to carry a range of products, right? So, if you had Alberta Bud as your storefront, you would be required to have other LPs in there anyway, So, you can't have your own Farm Gate. 

Rob: It that a Requirement? 

Kieley: Well, and the other thing is, is that right now, currently, if you did have your own store, you have to sell all your product to the AGLC, then buy it back. But most of our product is going to go on the lottery and you're only allowed to buy one or two cases at a time. 

Tim: Another major challenge. 

Kieley: You might not even actually get your own product

Tim: So, when we get our federal license, we're immediately allowed to sell plants and seeds, right? 

Kirk:  flowers and seeds. 

Tim: Plants and seed. OK, that's all we're allowed to sell on day one. And then you get your micro processing license and then you get your sales license amendment and then you can sell it to AGLC and AGLC only. Now they are not in a position to be able to warehouse live clone plants, even though I'm legally federally allowed to sell them. And that means that you can't buy plants in Alberta. 

Devon: But that's going to be the biggest change. I think with farm gate or would be the nicest change with you are allowed to build a dispensary right off of your your micro and you can we could keep the clones alive. 

Kieley: Anybody, anybody who's got just nursery license who can't do processing. They can't. You can't have a nursery license and a micro processing license. Nurseries aren't only seeds and clones.

Kirk: What the heck. this is complicated. 

Tim: and we are just scratching the surface. 

Kieley: If you only get a nursery license, you have no ability to sell your product direct to consumers, you have to sell them B to B. Like, I'd have, you know, if I had a nursery, I'd have to sell to another licensed producer only. 

Kirk: So, if you wanted to be a clone specialist, you could sell your clones to another guy to grow them. 

Kieley: There is no legal way for Albertan recreational cannabis growers to purchase their four plants. There's no legal way to do that. There's no ability to do that. So, where do you think they're getting their clones, So, they're getting it from the illicit market? So, the actual framework that the government has is actually encouraging illicit sales. 

Devon: What else do you say? 

Kirk: So, So, where were the craft industry being five years ago? 

Devon: Well, we like to see some more access to operate on our own two feet. 

Tim: There's good signs. 

Rob: I think it will improve and you're here and I am here. Ogen does about 350 kilograms a month, right. I don't know what you're doing on a monthly basis. I'm doing twenty-five. That's the craft market, right? His level of the craft market is completely different my level. 

Kirk: Isn't there a definition. In one podcast I asked what's the definition of of a micro craft business? 

Kieley: Oh, there's a there's dozens. It depends on the day.  In Ontario, their definition of craft, a craft cannabis operator, is less than 10,000 kilograms a year, which is pretty big. That's big, that's big. That's a big,. 

Devon: It's huge. But if you all have you talk about a company like Ogen, for example, that's doing 350 kilograms a month. But they can, you know, easily spend that in their favor and saying, OK, but all of our rooms are only, you know, 2500 or 3000 square feet, and they can really, you know, control the climate and everything else and how it's been grown. 

Rob: And sort of that market hijacked the craft word. We need a different word, right? Not craft anymore. We need to be a different word. You need to be...I don't know. 

Kieley: Well, the federal government came out with that word, and that's a micro cultivation, right? They basically said that a micro cultivation is no bigger than 200 square meters of canopy, which that's what they're saying is a craft grower really in essence, like, is that?  but the reason they came out that was for security purposes, right? They're saying and 200 square meters, you don't need to have video cameras everywhere. You don't need to keep all your video data for two years like, you know, So, there is an advantage to that. The disadvantages is you're not able to produce volume and 

Tim: access to market is really the biggest. 

Rob: Yeah. If anything comes out of this podcast, it's access to market. 

Kirk: Well, and that's what that's what floored me is that here you are, creating your product. You and I know can growers. I've met a lot of growers. You're passionate about your product, you want to get it to market, but it may not even go into your name. That, floors me has been, how do you build brand loyalty? 

Devon: You need to get you got a sales amendment and build that through your marketing team and everything else and provide a quality product right each time and every time, right? Like. 

Mark: I think the people that are really focused on quality cannabis will join together and help each other get to market. You can't depend on the big boys because they're playing a different game. They get different weapons. We are playing with our hands and they're are playing with guns. But no, I think you have to stick together and help each other get the market, not take advantage of each other because it's all about great cannabis. And it's the further we get down the line with people and educating them about what great cannabis is and they see just if they just see the masses and like they don't even know the great cannabis exists.  until you have that, how would you know that it exists? 

Kieley: I mean, that's why Tim and I, like we were both on the board of the Alberta Cannabis by Micro License Association and we we call ourselves the voice of craft cannabis in Alberta. And that's the thing. We we take all of these like all of these issues that we have and we bring it to the AGLC. One of our, my big issues with AGLC, when when I was first trying to put seeds out was the insurance costs. They were like, you have to have $10 million in liability insurance. And I said to them, I'm like, Why? Like, we're literally putting like, what? Somebody's going to choke on a seed? Like, Where's the liability? It's not a consumable product. I cannot be held responsible for how someone grows the cannabis. So, under the ACMLA banner, we sent in a proposal to them and we said, Look, you need to look at at the volume and the frequency and the actual risk associated with the products that micro producers are producing. If I'm only putting out twenty-five kilograms a month, then my risk is just not there. It's not $10 million worth of risk. And they agreed and they reduced. They've reduced, our requirement down to two million for seeds, five million for dried flower. And then they kept it at 10 million for extracts and edibles and topicals. 

Kirk: But what's the risk? Where is the risk? I don't understand. 

Kieley: That's a great question. 

Tim: You are a lawyer or an ex-lawyer or whatever. Yeah. So, where's the risk? Where's the risk in cannabis and providing cannabis? 

Tim: Yeah, I think the risk approach isn't measured to the actual risk that's faced. That's that's definitely true. And I think that's probably that was an intended decision at the beginning. I think probably the people who were putting these rules into place knew that. And they said, let's start like So, far overboard that nothing bad can happen, right? And then let's just recede it right. And I think I think that's the strategy, is what I'm seeing. 

Kieley: They haven't been following the strategy though. 

Tim: They cannot react fast enough. 

Kieley: They have not receded they've actually increased it. So, on August 3rd, AGLC announced to the entire cannabis industry that licensed producers, if you're going to sell directly to the AGLC, now have to go through an entirely new security clearance process. So, we've already gone through security clearance process federally, and now you're going to have to do another security clearance process. You may have been approved by Health Canada to operate in Canada and produce cannabis, but we're going to double check yet and you may not be approved and you might be approved to produce it, but you are not approved to sell it and they have done that. There have been licensed producers that are Health Canada licensed, and they are not allowed to sell in Alberta. 

Rob: Really? I didn't hear. 

Kieley: Absolutely. 

Kirk: Are they modeling? And again, I hate to do this. 

Kieley: They're modeling it after the gaming industry. Also, they are looking at, you know, the AGLC looks at the gaming industry if I want to start a casino. My personal disclosure, the the amount of paperwork is about 70 pages long. 

Tim: What are your kids names? 

Kieley: What are your kids names? What are their social insurance numbers? Are you married? Are you single? If you're if you're married? We need. We would like your notice of assessment not only of you, but of your spouse. And it's very invasive, but it's their sandbox and they can do whatever they want. If you want to be able to sell weed in Alberta, you will have to literally name your firstborn children. 

Tim: As collateral. 

Kieley: As collateral. Yeah. You know, and it's in that and that just happened, right? So, they haven't reduced it. 

Kirk: So, they're making it up as a they go along. 

Kieley: They have not reduced it at all. They've actually made it more difficult to have access to the market. 

Rob: They have never run into a problem like... 

Kieley: They have. And So, the thing is, is that they've they've gone through licensed producers and they have found indications of of organized crime, whatever that definition is to them, I have no idea. But whatever it is. It's legacy stuff. But if you have, you know, if you have any wisp of legacy operations at all, they will not allow you to sell cannabis. 

Kirk: Interesting. 

Devon: So, in the next five years Mark, you bring up, you know, working together and, you know, making sure we can all. Essentially, when you see a lot of consolidation between micro companies, 

Mark: I don't know about consolidation. There could be some for sure that partner up or co-ops, but it's almost like, you know, play friendly within your sandbox. There's other sandboxes and you know, we're all the same. We're all trying to get great cannabis to market, and that's really simple when you break it down like that. So, I think if we understand we all need to make money, but we don't want. I'm not a big believer taking advantage of people because there's one loser in them that deals done. It's done forever. So, if we can both win and then we can have a nice partnership and move product in through the market and premium product. So, well, So, we educate people that what it is, what is premium product? So, that question still is out there. 

Kirk: Well, we answered that one of our products in one of our podcasts. Farm gate would be premium

Devon: Well, certainly right now, the market considers premium product the highest THC level for the lowest price. You know, how do we win there? 

Tim: But then you open it

Kieley: But that changing as well. Like I've seen retailers now and they're like, all of that has changed. You know, for people that that consume quite a bit, you know, you still have. Obviously, that's still a majority of the market, but you see people coming back going that was crappy. Like, I don't care if it says 23 percent, that was not good cannabis 

Mark: Now is that it'll get a whole different story the testing and the numbers that go on

Devon: What do you think of the allowing bud tenders right at a retail level to be able to have or go through a training process to allow them to describe what they believe quality cannabis to be instead of just saying, OK, this is the highest percentage for the lowest price or here is 15 percent. Can we at allow education from bud tenders to consumers? 

Tim: We have more restriction on freedom of speech; the worst? 

Mark: Well, I think some of the chains are doing a great job of it. Some of the mom pops, you know, privately held is doing a fabulous job. Others are going at it a different way and going, you know, they're trying to get to the lowest price and just separate themselves from that. So, I think there is starting to see some of that as well with the really good operators who are just doing it on price. So, I think it's there's a war in all phases of this industry right now to survive, you know. 

Devon: Hurricane the hurricane. Y. 

Mark: We are probably in the eye of it, 

Kieley: I was out of the five folks standing here. I bet you're not one of us has turned a profit yet. 

Tim: Not a penny. No money. Oh, I think it's all going out. I feel like a bulldozer. 

Kirk: So, why? So, why are you doing it? 

Rob: Well, because we were sold a bill of goods by the federal government. I sometimes I feel like I, you know. You know, we we got into it honestly. We tried to live by the rules. We, you know, we've complied with everything we could and then we can do a point where you just stop and think, Okay, so. You know, how am I going to get rid of this stuff that we've grown So, nicely, and So, securely and it's like, now I have to go. Like I say to the enemy, and they're not all of. 

Kirk: Yeah, yeah, I know what you're saying. You're going to be a competitor. You're going to a competitor. 

Tim: A competitor and I'm not getting paid to hand trim these things right. Our quality was we thought we had really good quality stuff. We thought it was going. We built all our models it, you know, at $4 a gram and now we're going to get a buck and a half. And So, that changes a lot of things for producers. 

Kieley: and for some produces they are not even producing it a buck and half a gram you know, a small producer, you just can't do the volume to get those economies of scale. To that point, be fair. 

Kirk: That's what they are paying your for your weed buck and a half?. 

Kieley: Yeah, yeah. And then that's the thing is that if you don't have a distributor, you don't have someone set up to buy it when you harvest. Oh yeah, now you're sitting on it. So, what you might have got  

Tim: does't it get better with age?

Kieley: So, now it ages, and now you're getting 80 cents for that gram, like, you know, because it's hard.

Rob: Right now, it's a mugs game. We need to get access to the retail market somehow. 

Kieley: And nobody's getting fresh product like that's a there's a few there's a few processors that are getting fresh product out there, but like. The labeling, like, you know, the labeling thing is crazy

Tim: labeling games. So, like on our packages we started putting the harvest state on there because a game you can play is an LP is like we cut down the crop, we sit on it for a year and then we throw it into the little jars in this package yesterday, right? Like, that's the only mandated package date. It like the package day. Yeah. So, it's like transparency. It's like when you cut this thing down into living products. Its degrading. Yeah. Like, I want to know, right? 

Kirk: Well, we were just talking about that yesterday. You know, you buy your dubtube and it's just packaged on November 2020. 

Mark: It was probably harvest the day before. 

Kirk: Well, see, that's what you're telling me, well it was a dry as a popcorn fart I mean the pre rolls are very dry. So, interesting. 

Rob: Here's here's the other thing on the genetic testing, so. 

Kieley: There is no genetics. 

Rob: There is no genetic testing.

Tim: What is this new. 

Rob: I was laughing, somebody is going to come up with this. We're trying to come up with a material data sheet for So, it will have the genetics on it. Your COA attached to it is. So, you know, the Holy godfather goes out and it is Holy godfather. And you can prove that this Holy godfather today you can't. 

Kirk: Yeah, well, but I go into a store and it says, you know, Indica, Sativa, Hybrid. So, I'm going in there. I'm buying. 

Rob: It may be all three of those things. 

Kieley: Yeah, they're all hybrids. nothing is a true Sativa or true Indica anymore. 

Rob: It could be an OG Kush, whatever. There is so many names they're meaningless. And it could be a, you have no idea, 

Rob: but I could literally take an O.G. Kush and holy godfather, cross them together and call them banana pancakes and sell them out the door. It doesn't matter. Does matter. It's just a name. 

Kirk: But that goes back to the question. Then, like again, relating to Micro Beer. I mean, I like an IPA and there's a few breweries that I do a good IPA, and I go back and I get that beer, right? Cannabis is different. So, how do you how do I go back and always Parkland flower and make sure I'm getting the same quality every time. 

Tim: In the whole new world. Isn't it the latest and greatest like you go through it? Oh, I had that once, but then they say, Oh, I want something new. So, it's kind of like, you've got to keep up with the Joneses a little bit too, but you get an order. 

Kieley: And then you also get market saturation on a product. Anybody, you buy, anybody who about clones from Mother Labs like that, like, you know, last spring, you know that why was there such a huge glut of Black Cherry Punch? Because it was proven that you can hit 20 percent every time, no matter how shitty you grew it.  you would always hit 20 percent and Mother Labs selling clones left, right and center. And So, now all of a sudden, everybody and their dog had a Black Cherry Punch for a while, you know? And so, you know, that's the other thing. The advantage that micros have is that, you know, we have like unique genetics, bringing on new stuff. I mean, here in Parkland Flower we breed, we get like the next one that we have come out we actually bred it right in our facility, which is a Green Thia cross with a Wedding Cake. And So, like, that's that's what that's what's going on. These kinds of stories is what's going to differentiate these small craft growers. 

Rob: So, you know, riddle me this one, though. If you go and enter a supply agreement with with a with a with an LP that's remained unnamed, but you know, you grow their genetics for them, right? Yeah, they ship it to you. You grow it. They're going to guarantee you buy back and whatever number that's that's great. But if you don't hit the numbers for them  

Kieley: Where did you get a guaranteed I have only heard of right of first refusal. 

Rob: You didn't let me finish it is a first right to buy what they've supply you with. So, you're gonna grow it right and you don't hit their numbers. So, then they say, OK, well, we don't want it. Fine. Now you owe them for the clones that they've sent you and and you're allowed to sell it on the open market to anybody. You just can't call it what? It's what it is.

Tim: So, you got to put it under a different name. 

Rob: You have to call it something else. 

Tim: put in a NNCP in and wait 60 days to get your listing. It's crazy. 

Kirk: Wow. 

Devon: So, does anybody really know where the craft cannabis market is going in the next five years? 

Kieley: I don't know where it's going next week. 

Devon: It's going to chase its tail in circles. And, you know, hopefully we'll get access to the retail market at some point along the way and have access to sales to sell our product for a fair price and make some money. 

Kieley: You know what, we we're scaring the pants off of some of these larger producers like we have been eating and market share over the last year, like it's coming out in, you know, like literally those big, big brands, those big, big names, they're posting their numbers and they're losing market share and 

Kirk: stocks are falling. 

Kieley: The stocks are falling. Yeah. And so. 

Mark: And the consumer is becoming more educated and realize what great new great weed is, and they don't have to put up with a seven-month-old weed that's, you know, larvaied and I can do better and pricing is unfortunately has come down. But I can get a really good eighth, you know, for 40 bucks and feel great about it and probably not support the big boy, you know, unless you're investing in the big boy then you buy. 

Rob: Actual growing of the farm side production from those guys is coming down as they become, as they realize that they can't grow it. 

Mark: They can't grow it in those facilities like what we can do, they can't do it. 

Rob: Exactly So, they can become amalgamator because they've got the licenses, to sure. So, they'll buy our stuff and repackage it and call it theirs. 

Mark: They're probably turning into processors in many way. 

Kieley: You have to look at it, So, look at another side of things like, you look over at Ireland and Guinness, right? You think Guinness grows hops? Like they do not. They do not grow. Right? Yeah. So, I mean, all the farmers and when when that truck show is not from a farmer. Guinness has has one of the highest standards for the agricultural product that they will take in. And if your big truckload does not meet their standards, they are not going to buy it from you. Right. And that's, you know, but they don't. They don't grow. They don't grow one stock. You know what I mean? They're just they're that brand and they're that process 

Kirk: Using your model. So, is this a way that Big LP are going to small growers and saying, this is our craft line? 

Kieley: totally, 100%

Rob: So, that's what I mean. They've they've they've hijacked the craft name already.  Aurora's has a craft Sundial has a craft line. 

Kieley: But they can also package and process per gram for So, much cheaper than we could do because of the volume. Yeah, they've got automatic bottling lines and all that kind of stuff, and they're going to become more efficient like they will, right? Like, we're all new in this like all of us, like even those big guys are still like even though they've done it in the medical side, they're new to this recreational market. But as their costs come down, they will be able to pass if they So, choose to pass that savings down to the farmer, which is what should happen. Whether it does, that's yet to be. That remains to be seen 

Rob: So, likely in the next five years. All the product that hits the market is going to be from craft or micro producers, and the large players are just going to be buying the packaged goods business. They're going to process the product that will be smaller, operations grow and they're going to sell it out. And that's what's going to happen. 

Kirk: They're going to let you do all of that and they don't have to worry.  

Rob: It mitigates all the risk for them 

Kirk: Well, the other thing is, is that even some of this, like all of us, built facilities, you know, those big guys built facilities. And I'm sorry, you're not you're not putting not every you may. Some there may be somebody in this room that that, you know, their very first crop was the bomb, but dealing in a facility. 

Tim: Our plants were one feet tall.  

Kirk: how big were the flowers? 

Kieley: some of us did not get licensed until a good year to two years into legalization of recreational market, we're still in the process of just dialing in our our facilities. And that's the other thing is, what's really going to differentiate folks in the market is the ones that can hold on, like literally just survive. Like if you can just survive and continually improve and improve and improve, you'll make it in the end. But it's a lot of the ones that you know,. 

Kirk: have to have deep pockets. 

Kieley: You know, you got to have deep pockets. 

Rob: It's a big ocean. 

Kieley: Yeah, it is a big ocean. But once once you get through that, proving out your facility and dialing it in and you know that you can get that consistent product, there are companies out there that have done that in that craft space, like Ogen is one of them, they they are pumping out a consistent product they sell out as soon as it hits the market. You know, joint venture is buying up Premium Premium Mart, you know, small craft producing products. That model is that they're taking care of the farmers like. That's the model that they've done, and they do pay fair market value. 

Mark: It's the best deal in the business. 

Kieley: Yeah, So, far, right. So, far, So, far, you know, and there's lots of different models like it's it's like a big social experiment right now. The Shelter was doing basically consignment. You sell your product to them, they package it and then they're like, when it sells, we'll pay you right. So, there's also that model, right? And then if it doesn't and you're responsible for selling it, or maybe they're responsible for selling it, and if they don't sell it like it's just like, you know, it's tough. 

Kirk: You just got the tightest grin on and you just gave up a really good career and 

Tim: Who told you lawyering was a really good career. 

Mark: He's living the dream now.  

Kieley: Oh, you got to do this? We'll have to do this again in five years. 

Kirk: Thank you. Thank you very, very much, guys. 

Kirk: So, yeah, where do we begin with all that? How do we how do we sift through all the information that group of people gave us? 

Trevor: Well, and I don't want to start as a wet blanket, but my first thought is Jesus. If I had if I had some capital or I say a bunch of backers and I, I've been growing cannabis for 20 years on the black market. My my first thought would not be, Geez, I want to become a craft grower because, you know, I don't have to. It's now not. I love growing cannabis. Here's how I can do it better. Get to legal markets. Geez, there's just way too much paperwork. Just that's all they seem to. They seem to be drowning in paperwork. 

Kirk: Yeah, yeah. One thing that we didn't mention during this conversation, and I don't think any of these individuals would be would be angry if I say this. But off off camera, we had conversations. A lot of these guys are working for companies that have backers, people that are prepared to lose money for a while. So, there's there's some money in these craft growers backing them up and allowing them to grow good cannabis and to eventually break into the market. But I just found it. I mean, again, we always seem to go back to the beer industry, and it's not because I'm comparing cannabis to beer because there's So, many different things and nuances about it. But again, it's also just understanding learning. As we go, as our audience will know, we both are beer snobs. I've been a beer snob for a good 35-40 years. Well, yeah, but I mean, like a beer snob in the sense of buying quality European beers and learning about beers. And I'm old enough to have seen the what we used to call the regional breweries to craft breweries, the microbreweries, how they got a marketplace. And I mean, Molson and Labatt eventually developed their own craft lines and be damned if not looking at the recreational. That's the caveat here. This is a recreational cannabis growers group. I never had the forethought to ask them if any of them are growing medicinally, but I do not believe So, right. 

Trevor: I don't believe So, either. I think they said a couple of times, this is the recreational market. 

Kirk: This is a recreational market. So, what I'm observing and learning in the recreational market is that big business, big. Our LP are using some of these small growers grabbing their stuff, packaging their stuff, selling it as their craft line. But there's no consistency. So, getting back to the whole, the whole beer industry. How the hell do I, as a customer, develop brand loyalty when I don't know what's coming in that plastic plastic container? Each and every time I buy a cannabis strain or cultivar from from from an LP, that's what I got out of that. It is. There is there is no way.  

Trevor: And I was thinking about it as a consumer, too. So, you know, and of course, these were little guys. So, they're complaining about the big guys. But even the big guys, you know, they have to buy a SKU. So, you know, in the pharmacy, SKU is just anything that's got a barcode on it like a UPC, but that the LPs have to buy a SKU and then then they can't change it. Like if they, you know, one one month grew really good Pink Kush and the other Wedding Cake or, you know, they can't just change it. So, as a consumer, it makes sense why the LP's would do this. But you know, now they just make a very neutral SKU and basically put whatever in it. So, again, as a consumer, if I really like Brand X from Company Y, I'm not necessarily going to get the same stuff every time, which as a consumer I find annoying. And then like they were saying, well, one that just blew my mind is, So, let's say a Craft cannabis guy opened a store they couldn't be guaranteed to sell their stuff in their same store because they have to sell it to Alberta Gaming and Liquor and Cannabis. And then they have to buy back in a lottery system and they might not necessarily get their stuff in the lottery. So, you know, they open a store, you know, Parkland Flower opens Parkland Flower store. They might not be able to sell Parkland Flower stuff in their own store because again, I don't. And I'm not even really blaming the government, exactly. But it's come on, we. You know, we've got to be able to make these these the bureaucracy work better if if all you're trying to do is be good to the consumer, make it easier. And if you're trying to get rid of the black market, make it easier because if it was easier for me to sell to the black market, I'm not saying I want to break the law. But if it was that much easier and more profitable, why wouldn't I? 

Kirk: So, here's a question why is this important to know.  Why? Why does a nurse and the pharmacist need to interview recreational craft growers? 

Trevor: Well, first, because, you know, as Canadians, we can enjoy cannabis recreationally. So, you know, that doesn't matter whether I'm nurse, pharmacist, engineer, accountant, I might like to enjoy it. I might like to enjoy this recreationally, and I think this is good to know. But on the other hand, there are going to. But let's go back to the medical part. There's going to be a lot of people we see professionally who either go to the REC store and use use the recreational stuff medicinally because they just that's their choice and they want to or they want to, or they're using it recreationally and have either other medications or other medical conditions. And we need to have an idea about how the stuff they're using recreationally affects the rest of their life. And you know, I think as a pharmacist, you know, we kind of obsess over what it says on the outside of the bottles, what's inside the bottle? That's kind of the whole point of what what we do this what's outside the bottle doesn't say what's inside the bottle that drives me batty? 

Kirk: Yes, yes. And this goes back. This goes back to the paradox. I mean, we've been doing this podcast for about three years now. But what I found interesting is, again, we were... As a nurse, I am taught and and basically encouraged to tell my patients that you don't want to buy your weed your medical cannabis on the black market because you don't know what's in it. Well, in all due respect, the government regulations have set it up So, that if I choose to buy my, my, my, my weed recreationally, I still don't know what's in it. It's packaged nicely. It's got a it's got a provincial label on it, but I don't know what it is. You know, they can tell me what it is. And the other thing that I love about this, Trevor, is that when was it harvested? Do you remember when we when we were, you know, we were in Alberta? 

Trevor: Yeah. No, no. That was a huge eye-opener. I had heard a little bit about, Oh, it's old is whatever, but the whole when I forget to. But someone said, Oh, yeah, well, someone could, you know, harvest it, sit on it for a year, package it. And then the date that you know me, the consumer sees is the date it was package. You know, it's been sitting in a vault for 

Kirk: what had happened and that happened to us. That happened to us in Alberta, where we were in the smoking room and there's a dude tube. And I asked to look at it and I looked at the dude tube and it was harvested. What it was harvested seven eight months, not harvested. So, they packaged seven or eight months 

Trevor: before it could have been harvested a year before that 

Kirk: exactly. And because and because it's a it's it's a roll pre-roll. We know that pre-rolls aren't necessarily coming from the select buds. So, So, again, that the whole system, I'm just laughing because I've listened to this interview three or four times in the last twenty four hours trying to get my head and and trying to grasp what what was being said. And I understood probably 90 percent of what they were telling us, only because we've had conversations with craft growers before. But but think about the legacy market or the other black market or whatever, but just walk through the process of, how an LP or a craft grower becomes a business, they they have to have genetics. OK, So, you would think and this is this is what we hear if you go back to our other episodes, they have what's called a is your name, where the declaration, where they declare what their genetics will be and the government says, OK, you've got twenty-five plants of X. You can grow that now and you can grow that for seeds or for plants or for flower. They give you that you give it to you. But but to move over and step into the LP legal domain as a legacy grower, black market grower, there's this faded area. Don't ask, don't tell where you got it from. And then and then Kieley mentioned about, you know, Mother Mother Labs, who we met in Saskatoon and we interviewed them. So, go back to the Saskatoon Potpourri for Mother's Labs, but now those guys are selling clones. And as I understood it, because it can't sell it to recreational growers, right? Because recreational growers in Alberta can only grow from seed, So, they sent a bunch of clones out to LP. And now they saturated the market with mother's clones. So, I don't know if it was all. It makes you wonder why we haven't gotten rid of the legacy market, why they're still, why they're still, you know, black market cannabis out there now. Sorry, I'm getting dropped before you start. But oh yeah. Yeah, I was talking to Derek again in lack of fish. We sat down, we spent an afternoon together catching up and I got some stories out of them and we just chatted. And he was saying that in his small towns that he is now reselling cannabis from the legacy market is still rather huge. And it's good weed, and it's not, you know, laced with stuff because that I mean, who's going to do that anymore? But he's competing with the legacy market as well as a reseller. So, what I'm learning as a nurse and why, again, this is important to me as a nurse understand is that there's this propaganda propaganda that legalization of Canada was going to break the criminal market of cannabis. But the irony is the regulations and the legislations and the federal versus the provincial, it might be easier just to stay in the legacy market. 

Trevor: Yeah. And again, I don't I want to give we'll call it our bureaucrats and our policymakers the benefit of the doubt. I don't, but I'm hoping that wasn't their intention. I'm hoping that, you know, they didn't get together in a backroom deal. Let's make this So, difficult that, you know, it's next to impossible for a small grower to make it.

Kirk: I don't I don't agree with that.

Trevor: But I. But but I think it's you know what? We're three years in now. I think it's time for a sit down and say, Well, how could we make this easier? You know, we through all these policies and they don't all make sense. And you know, that's, you know, talk to someone like Kieley's group. I think that's the the Alberta Micro Producers Association and don't have that quite right. And let's sit down with groups like that and go, OK. We think having small growers is a good idea. How could we make this easier? And you know, the government's going to have some hard stops. I'm sure, you know, somewhere in their mandate is make sure nobody in the small grower or craft grower group is associated with organized crime. All right. So, they've got to have criminal record checks or, you know, they've got a, you know, the Alberta government has got to make X amount of dollars off of it. OK, well, you have to make. But you know, it's only got to be So, many absolute hard stops from the government's point of view. And you know, and the a lot of these policies are our regulations are just there, probably because no one realized what a big pain in the ass. 

Kirk: The boy, I had So, many things I want to say, and I want to impact what you just said. You know, it's interesting. You said, you know, we have to do a criminal record check. We have to do criminal record checks for everything nowadays, right? And especially in health care. And we've talked about how we live in a we work in a profession where the customers trust us, but the regulators don't. I mean,. 

Trevor: True. 

Kirk: You know, as a nurse, if you are a criminal and you've done your time, you've paid your price, man. I don't care that you have a criminal record in the sense of how I'm going to care for you. So, the fact that I have a criminal record, I don't understand how that's going to make me a cannabis grower any more difficult. But that's that's for lawyer speak and politicians and and for deep conservative thinkers to think about what I what I want to sort of what I want to mean. My point is, is that as a nurse, you are an individual. You paid your time. You did your time for whatever you did, it's paid. Let's go forward. Please don't do it again. We'll trust you not to do it again. If you do it again. Well, you know, off you go into the system again and we won't get into recidivism. That's a different issue too. God So, many issues, Trevor, but I made a comment. I made a comment to Kieley and I said, Well, you know, she was talking about liability insurance and I and and Tim, I think Tim was the lawyer from Alberta Bud and I kept teasing him about being a lawyer. But you know where what I've learned again in the last three years, I've been an advocate of cannabis for many years, but in the last three years, specifically cannabis, where is the risk? 

Trevor: Yeah, I agree. So. So, just to throw out the Kieley number because I wrote that down because it was huge to sell into Ontario, she needed seventy-five million dollars worth of recall insurance. And So, that costs her seventy-five thousand dollars a year premium. So, that means that if she's selling into Ontario, she's selling it at a loss, you know that much insurance makes selling into Ontario unprofitable. Now Ontario is also the biggest market in Canada, So, you know that's where she feels she has to sell, and that makes sense. But like you said, what's the where, where, where? And there was other insurance that she ought to buy in Alberta? Because you know what, if someone choked on one of because it's Kieley's company also sells seeds for other people to grow with. Well, that's not a consumable product. What is someone going going to choke on the seed? Like, where's? Why do I have to carry insurance for this 

Kirk: peppercorns bigger than a cannabis seed man? You can choke on a peppercorn. 

Trevor: But, but I agree, it's very interesting. I think again it was Tim who said, you know, maybe they just started with making the regulations stupid hard and are going to slowly bring them down, which that's OK. That's fine. But yeah, it's the the assumption that cannabis is risky. Now, other than. And this is just me speculating other than the potential of organized crime being involved in cannabis. I don't know what, but let's say they are. 

Kirk: Well, they are. They have been. 

Trevor: but but you know, as as a quote unquote risk, that's about the only risk I can think like it's 

Kirk: well, you know what? 

Trevor: Yeah, there's not a lot. There's not a lot of... If I'm wrong, someone should educate us. I'm not seeing an awful lot of risks that they need huge amounts of insurance. 

Kirk: Well, let's get our give our listeners some credit here. Obviously, everyone is listening to this podcast have heard all 77 episodes of this podcast. Now, if they haven't heard all 77 episodes, let's review some of the things we've learned. What is what is a lethal dose? What is what is that as a pharmacist when we talk about a lethal? 

Trevor: Oh, it's right that LD 50, but it's thousands of pounds. One of our guests said it said, at best, you're you're more likely to die of that bale of cannabis landing on you that will more likely kill you before you could smoke or consume at all. 

Kirk: There was So, many things we've learned about cannabis that the risk. Risk management I was I was. I have been. I have scratched the surface of risk management in health care in one of my and one of my job is one of my career moves I was working with H.R. department and working with risk managers and my rudimentary understanding of risk management. It's low risk in cannabis, but I think governments are still working on stigma and a lack of understanding of cannabis, and it's showing in how they regulate the marketplace and how they're regulating large LPs and smaller growers. And I and I guess I can only hope that they that they listen to our podcasts and realize changes has to happen. So, yeah, it's it's a good conversation, man. I am. After listening to it, you know, I'd like to go back to those those five and have another conversation because there are So, many more questions I have. 

Trevor: Well, we've got their business cards now. They can't run away from us. So, any, if this was used, you set this up with Kieley, anything you want to it. Like you said, it was very idea dense. Any anything you want to sort of wrap this up before we before we go out on this one? 

Kirk: No, I think I I think we kind of beat it to death here. It's I think one of the things I find interesting is that, you know, it's it's it's as a recreational consumer of cannabis and people have to be aware that you may not be getting what you think you're getting consistently. So, it's difficult to have, you know, I really like Indica. I really like sativa. Well, unless you have known land races and the and the genetics has been followed from from where the original clone came from, you're not getting it right. We know that. We know that the craft growers or any LP, the customer is not us, the customers to government. Right, right. That's the interesting thing is that they're selling to the government. I thought it was interesting that there's no ability to get clones. And yeah, I just I just liked it. I just liked it. It was a good conversation. And I also want to thank them all for trusting us and and gathering together to talk about their industry. It was nice to arrive the expo and feel welcomed. It's like I've said, the green culture is a welcoming group of people. 

Trevor: Yeah, no. It was a great conversation and I thought it sounded great that we had sort of music and stuff going on in the background. I think it just sort of added to it. So, thank you to everybody who participated and you out there listening I hope you enjoyed listening that conversation, as much as we did, So, I should say because I haven't said it yet. I'm Trevor Shewfelt, I'm the pharmacist 

Kirk: and I'm Kirk Nyquist, I'm the nurse and this is Reefer Medness - The Podcast. I would like everyone to go to our web page. We have a very comprehensive webpage, Eventually, this this episode will be up in transcripts. I got to. I'll have to parse through everyone's voice, and hopefully I don't put Tim's name where Rob was speaking. I'll try to make sure I get that correct. I have a My Cannabis Story for you Trevor. 

Trevor: OK, who do you got? 

Kirk: Well, I got a I got a buddy of mine that we were golfing and we're sitting down having brunch. I got an eight o'clock in the morning tee off time. Honest to God, we were. We were. We were shooting our balls through through mist and and dew on the ground. It was it was interesting. I roll my ball pretty much all the way to the hole. No matter how, you know, trying to get loft. But I had a rooster tail. I was one of my one of my drives went across the grass So, well they had a huge rooster tail. So, anyways, yeah, after the after the golf game, we we sat down and had some fish and chips. And I asked, I asked my buddy Steve. I said, You know, I said, You got any cannabis stories for me, he says, What you talking about? I said, Well, I'm just collecting cannabis stories. So, he gave me one, and this is one going back several decades and it's on on the Yellowhead Highway from Edmonton to Edson. And So, it's an Alberta cannabis story. 

Trevor: All right. Sounds good. 

Kirk: Yes, go ahead give me a cannabis story. 

Steve: So, back in 1981 in the middle of winter, I took a trip from the town I grew up into a city near me to pick up five pounds of marijuana, of which I smoke some of it. I would say. anyway we went to Edmonton got there mid-afternoon went to the person's house, partook in a fair amount before we left. It was dark and cold by the time we left driving back to town, I grew up in with five pounds of marijuana in the back seat of my car. Unfortunately, the road disappeared at 60 miles an hour and we ended up in the ditch. Yeah. So, at that time, there were no cell phones, So, I, the lady I was with, stayed in the truck and I stood on the side of the road and stuck my thumb out. Fortunately, somebody picked me up and we got back to town and I got to my parents place because that's where I was staying at the time. And I said, Dad, would you mind driving me out to get my truck? So, we got my four by four and drove out there. He was he was not impressed with us. Long and short of it, we got the truck out of the ditch, we got the marijuana back home and promptly parted it out into appropriate sizes for resale. 

Trevor: All right, So, thanks again, everybody for listening. This was another idea packed episode. I hope you enjoyed it. 

Rene: Hey, it's Rene here back at the studio. Excellent episode, guys. Thank you very much for that. As we usually end the program with a song, I figured I would choose something related to Calgary. And So, I found a song called Calgary by Bon Iver. So, that's how we're going out. See you next time.