Episode Transcript

Trevor:  Kirk, we're back.

Kirk:  Hey Trevor, how's it going?

Trevor:  Good, you, I, we, the podcasts has been trying for a little while to talk to a vet and one just kind of reached out to you.

Kirk:  Yeah, exactly. And not just one vet, but two potential stories. This is obviously our story from a vet who uses cannabis. I will have another one coming a few weeks later about a practitioner in Edmonton that also uses cannabis with pets. But yeah, this episode, Trevor, is really for dog owners, especially the YouTube version. Dr. Kevin and I talked for about 35 minutes, and that full interview will be found on our YouTube channel. This audio broadcast that we're going to do here, we're gonna focus mostly on the cannabis conversation.

Trevor:  Okay. So this is Dr. Kevin, he's a vet, he does telehealth and cannabis and maybe we'll just let him introduce himself.

Dr. Kevin:  Yeah, I am Dr. Kevin. I'm a veterinarian based in the U.S., in particular on the central coast of California, and I specialise in longevity. Probably the only veterinarian in the United States that specialised just in how to help your pet live longer. And so I use a combination of telemedicine consults, prescription longevity drugs, and supplements proven over a 40-year veterinary career to help ensure that your pet lives their longest and best life.

Kirk:  And I did sneak at your web page. I had a scan through it. So cats and dogs mostly.

Dr. Kevin:  Cats and dogs exclusively. Yep. And I ended up in California. I spent 20 years in Colorado, Larry, a few years in Montana. So I'm a little familiar with your neck of the woods. I spent a lot of time up in BC actually had relatives on Victoria on Vancouver Island. And so yeah, you and I have crossed paths geographically anyway.

Kirk:  I grew up in Victoria. Very cool. So a longevity veterinarian. What is that?

Dr. Kevin:  So, let me start by saying what it isn't. I spent about 35 years in veterinary practise, in small animal clinical practise. And in my mind, in a lot of respects, at least here in the United States, Kirk, veterinary practise is broken. And so I ended up selling my practise back in 2018 to a fairly large company. And so, like you, I've been able to kind of pick and choose the next chapter in my life. And the needs of older pets has always resonated with me. There's a couple of backstories behind that. But I mean, older pets, just like the patients that you are familiar with in two-legged form, older pets deal with chronic pain. They deal with cancer. They deal metabolic disease, you know, heart problems and the like. It's really kind of a specialised niche that most veterinarians Kirk, do not have the time, do not really have the knowledge to solve. The veterinarians, at least down here in the United States, book typically on 15 or 20-minute intervals. And they're very good. And I speak as a member of that group. You know, we as veterinarians are very good at reactively solving problems. So if you show up with a dog with a cut foot or a cat with an abscess or whatever, or porcupine quills back in the day when I was in Colorado.  We can solve the heck out of that. But what veterinarians aren't so good at, both from a time and a knowledge perspective, Kirk is sitting down and chatting with you, not necessarily just about the next week or two weeks or four weeks of your dog's life, but how we address the next year or two or five years of your dogs life to make sure that we help them live their best and longest life. And that's where I come in.

Kirk:  So if I'm going to equate this to what I understand the health care system in human form, we have the sickness model, which is the medical model, and we have the wellness model, the nursing model. You are a vet, so in the veterinarian world, is it mostly then sickness model and you are on the wellness?

Dr. Kevin:  Yep, absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely. Now what I found, as I imagine you have too, somewhere along my 35-year career, I realised it was a heck of a lot more rewarding and in all candour, more successful if you and I try to look at problems before they occur using proactive testing, using symptom-based or genetic-based understanding of our pet's health to really try to plot what diseases they're likely to run into and how best to avoid them longer term. It just makes sense on your side of the fence and it makes sense online.

Kirk:  Well, it kind of makes sense if we just did that in healthcare everywhere, right? If you go into your primary care clinic and they just drew your blood and figured out, okay, here's your genetics. Here's what science says you're gonna be predisposed to. All right, here is what we can do to keep you to live longer. But I used to have a boss that said, you know, Kirk, if you solve a problem, you don't get any funding for it. So could you imagine all the money that wouldn't be made if no one got sick?

Dr. Kevin:  Yeah, and the hard part, to be honest with you, and I know that's said tongue-in-cheek on your part, but down here in the U.S., most veterinary clinics nowadays are actually owned not by a schmo like me, Kirk, but rather by a big corporate company. The company that makes Mars candy bars is actually the single largest corporate owner of veterinary practises in the world. And so what happens is that they get veterinarians fresh out of school, so they don't have an awful lot of practical knowledge. And then these veterinarians that are fresh out of school are told, listen, you can only spend 15 or 20 minutes in an appointment. Here is the list of vaccines that you have to recommend. Here are the medications that you have to use and oh, by the way, your compensation, typically a new graduate veterinarian would make probably 100K around here, but they also make 21 to 24% of the gross income for the practise. And so those veterinarians have a very clear financial motivation that many times is not in your pet's best interest. Let's just say that.

Kirk:  Are you talking about out algorithm like following algorithms that then corporate algorithms? Yeah.

Dr. Kevin:  Yeah, yeah, a lot of, I mean, most, many of these larger veterinary clinics, the corporations hand these new vets, essentially a glorified loose leaf notebook, Kirk, and in that is exactly how to treat a cat abscess, you know, from the anaesthesia down to the injectable antibiotics to the fluids and the antibiotics to go home. And there is no clinical, there are no clinical choices in that. In other words, if you and I... You know, look at one, you know, on a cat abscess, I typically look at the puss under a microscope. Well, is it, are they E. Coli, are the coliform or are they staph, you know, because I would choose antibiotics based upon that. But in the case of these corporate acquirers, the reality is they're just handed one antibiotic to use. And you know, I just can't help but feel that that's not practising the world's best medicine for your pet or mine. And so as somebody, you know I'm 66 years old at this point, Kirk. And so I have the luxury of time. I have luxury of doing things my way. I'm very much a relationship guy. I may not have been the world best veterinarian at any one point in my life, but I was a relationship guy. And if you brought your dog in, you and I, I'd give you a hug or a handshake. We'd sit and talk about the Senators for a few minutes and then we'd go ahead and talk about the pet's current health and then build a plan, build a proactive plan. But that both the knowledge around that plan and the time to to develop it, Kirk, are missing these days in veterinary medicine. So that's why I've developed this telemedicine concept. Works pretty well for my own purposes.

Kirk:  This is all new to me. So I mean, up here, we have protocols and guidelines and guidelines allow you to use your clinical judgement whereas protocols tend to be A or B. But hey, let's slip in since we're a podcast on cannabis, you did approach me and said that you do use cannabinoid therapy. So do you wanna dig into that a little bit?

Dr. Kevin:  Yeah, I do. I'm not going to pretend to have your level of expertise, but CBD is clearly a natural supplement that is very popular and very safe. So right now, as somebody who lives in California, you can find CBD on every street corner. Every gas station, every convenience store carries their own brand of CBD. Now, the question, of course, is how many of those have contaminants? What is their purity? And there are some interesting studies around that. But setting those concerns aside, the reality is that CBD, in my line of work, has three primary benefits for patients like yours. One is the fact that it's been proven categorically to reduce seizure episodes. And epilepsy in dogs is a very common problem, especially in large breed dogs. Secondly, it's been proven to help dermatologic problems, especially skin itch, and if you were in my line of work, you would know how many pets come walk in the door, walk in the front door of your veterinary clinic each day with itch. And then the third component to it is pain management. CBD products have been proven... Uh, improve not only pain, but also to reduce inflammation within the joints. And so when you combine these problems, now I'm not saying the seizures are as common as itchy pets or painful pets, but if, if you and I can use a natural product like CBD to, to benefit the majority of pets, which include the itchy pets are the painful pets. Why not? What is the downside to that? And so I, I many times use CBD as standalone therapy in early stages of disease, but longer term I use it as integrative therapy in combination with allopathic drugs and many times rehab therapy in the case of painful pets.

Kirk:  Now, is this something that you're allowed to do now, I guess, as an independent vet? Would this be something that other vets that work for corporate stores would be allowed to do? Yeah.

Dr. Kevin:  Yeah, so I would tell you that the veterinarians who work for corporate practises, to the best of my knowledge, cannot use CBD products in their practise. They can recommend them, but they're not allowed to carry them because there's a hell of a banking issue around CBD and THC and marijuana products in general. And for instance, you know, I'm strictly online these days, and so I use a couple of payment processors, Stripe and PayPal. And if I was carrying CBD products, even though they have no THC in them whatsoever, I could lose my payment processing overnight. So in one day, I would go from being in business to out of business. And that's frustrating to me, because the honest truth, Kirk is that I don't, you know, I just. I believe in doing what's best for my pets, Kirk. I could not care less about the regulations around it if I know that I'm doing what clinically best for the patients in my care. And so it drives me just a little crazy to think that the banking system is limiting my access to those products.

Kirk:  Are you prepared to get into the other cannabinoids and how that affects dogs like dogs do have endocannabinoid systems?

Dr. Kevin:  So I'm going to, I lack your depth of expertise and I make no bones about it. I would tell you that traditionally the actual THC has been thought to be toxic to dogs, but the reality is that that is not the case.

Kirk:  That, I'm going to stop you there. That is the one question I was hoping we'd talk about today. So THC or the acid form or the carboxylated, just carry on from there.

Dr. Kevin:  Okay, well see I'm gonna pretend I'm going to I'm in a state for the record I'm ignorant when it comes to the acid or  carboxylated form, but I would say this And I base this not so much on studies because I think that in general the veterinary Profession is still convinced that THC creates problems for our pets. But on an anecdotal basis, I would tell you, Kirk, that I've seen any number of pets, of dogs in particular, they get into their owner's stash, they find a leftover roach, whatever the case may be, and they come in and they test positive for THC. They test positive, for cannabinoids. And, you know, back in the day, we were taught, oh man, you need to make these pets vomit, you needed to go ahead and, you now, hook them up to fluids and watch them for, you know, for ventilatory support. No, I mean, the reality is that now what we're learning is that these pets are effectively stoned. You know, there's no doubt about it. They're relatively immobile, they're docile, but the reality that these effects burn off over a four to six hour period and you are left with an absolutely normal pet. And I address this very directly on our website because, meaning in California, there is a stereotype around marijuana use and people have a tendency to panic about it, But honestly, now obviously you and I both understand that there's a dose related response and what would not bother a 100 pound dog might create other issues for a 10 pound dog. But taken as a whole, the reality is that, the CBD is far and away the safer product, or far and way the more used product with known beneficial effects. The THC as a small component of a product or as accidental ingestion, no problem at all, Kirk. I just don't see the problems.

Kirk:  I, um... I concur. I'm not a vet, but I've got observation experience. And just to do a sort of a recap, when you think about cannabis as a raw flower growing in soil or just laying around drying, raw cannabis has no intoxicating effect. So if a dog decided to get into my raw flower, there's no intoxicated effect. Now, if a dog chooses to get into my cookies or my brownies or my baked goods, then you've got a decoboxylized cannabinoid, which has an intoxicating effect. So. I too agree with you, I don't believe anything in a cannabis plant would harm a dog, but then again chocolate harms dogs, grapes harm dogs, they get into the kidneys. So I don't know if there's any science out there that says cannabinoids affect the kidneys

Dr. Kevin:  Best of my knowledge, no. And let me just address those things in passing. There is certainly the old wives' tale around chocolate. And I'm going to tell you that, in large part, it is an old wives tale. It's just simply a dosage per kilogramme basis. The reality is that River, at his 100, 50-kilo size, can eat an awful lot more chocolate without any problems than a 5- or 10-kilogramme dog.

Kirk:  He loves chocolate. He would like it.

Dr. Kevin:  Yeah, well, I will tell you that I had a six. 55 kilo, Bernie's Mountain Dog at one point in my life. His name was McGregor, named after, ironically, the uncle that originated back up on Vancouver Island.

Kirk:  Well, I was going to say to you, that's a very popular breed in the northern island, the part of the north of the island. Very popular breed.

Dr. Kevin:  And so he got into, I don't know if they sell them up near neck of the woods, but down here they sell Hershey's Kisses, they're little foil wrapped pyramid shaped chocolates. And he got in to a one pound bag around Christmas time, you know. And all he did, Kirk, was he just shit green and red and silver foil for a week. He never looked back, never had any other health issue. Now, day in and day out, chocolate will cause some diarrhoea for smaller dogs, but again, it's not rocket science to think of this as a dose-related issue. The dogs who seizure on chocolate are those little five and six and seven kilo dogs who ate that whole pound or whole half kilo or kilo of chocolate. But in general, you don't have to worry about that. If you are getting into a jam, we can go ahead and talk about how to induce vomiting with peroxide, et cetera.

Kirk:  Been there, done that.

Dr. Kevin:  It's yeah, it's an overblown concern my friend an over blown concern

Kirk:  Let's go back to cannabis. So you I noticed on your web page you do have formulations you provide your your your patients. But obviously you said the CBD it would it would change your practise if you had to do that so then you prescribe them and you have a you have an licenced producer or a store you send them to for dogs?

Dr. Kevin:  Again, in particular, I would say that, let me circle back to what I mentioned earlier, and that is that down here, I mean, there is so much interest in CBD products in particular and marijuana rit large, you know, for recreational, both recreational and medical use. But speaking to CBD, there was just a study done by a veterinary company, and what they did is they bought 17 different brands of CBD off the web, from the internet. And of those 17 brands, they found that exactly three actually had the measured amount of CBD, the stated amount of CBD in there. And the other 14 were essentially placebos, Kirk. And so to me, the reality is that, you know, when I prescribe a product like CBD, I want to know about its purity. I want know about a strength. And so if you're asking me what I do in particular, there's one company down here. It's a medical CBD product called Elevet, E-L-L E-V-E-T. And I have no affiliation whatsoever with them. They don't pay me for this recommendation. But for the pets that I serve, I always recommend this Elevette CBD because they've gone through the toxicology. They've gone though the purity studies. They have gone through the effectiveness studies and it's just a product that I can trust. Now is it different? Is it less potent, more potent? Is is it more pure than something that I could find locally? Maybe, maybe not, but it's a brand that I go to without any hesitation.

Kirk:  Very cool. Very cool, I was just looking back at our web page and Season 2 Episode 7 we interviewed Brad Patterson and this was just after legalisation I think so we legalised in 2018 we launched, I think we were actually visiting him just before legalisation, I wasn't sure but he has a brand of pet CBDs. And he's a dog trainer opposed to a veterinarian. And at the time of the interview, if I remember correctly, gosh, it's eight years ago, we talked to him. But he was using CBD to help dogs that were sad, depressed. So he felt CBD helped with mood emotions with dogs.

Dr. Kevin:  Mm-hmm. What's your experience been with that?

Kirk:  Well, like I said, my experience with my dog, I don't give my dog CBD. No, I don't use cannabis products on my dog. So I never thought of it. It's never been thought of. And like I say, thank you for getting hold of me because I was very interested in talking to a vet. So you actively, so how many patients do you have that are on a CBD product?

Dr. Kevin:  Couple hundred.

Kirk:  Wow. Okay. And you're using it for skin and using it for pain management.

Dr. Kevin:  Just the big three. I mean, I think, I mean there just isn't the science to support it. I mean, there's, with great respect to your friend, I mean, show me the studies around, you know, depression, etc. And I would use it, but there are ample studies around the big three for me. Again, the seizures, the joint pain, and the...

Kirk:  And and in dogs and in

Dr. Kevin:  Pain and itch are so common a problem for veterinarians. They're probably number one and number two on why you and I would see a sick pet walk in the door. And so yeah, I'm very much an integrated veterinarian. I believe in herbal therapy across the board and CBD is a great choice for those patients. Now, you know, it's interesting, at least in my line of work, I do have people, Kirk, that come back and say, listen, you know, I'm just not interested in using, you know, marijuana, quote unquote, on my, on my pet. And, you know, sometimes when I sit down and chat with them and explain the difference between the various cannabinoids, sometimes they listen and sometimes they don't. But the reality is, it's my goal as a practitioner to give folks the very safest and the most effective approach to solving their pet's health problems as possible. And CBD is a large part of that.

Kirk:  Very cool, very cool. Is there any, is there any questions I didn't ask you about, about cannabis products with, with pets? And this is dogs and cats? Like you're using both?

Dr. Kevin:  Cats are so darn finicky. I would tell you this, Kirk. I've never seen a cat come in for marijuana toxicity or suspected inadvertent poisoning, quote unquote. And so they're just so finicky that they don't put anything in their mouth. So I'm going to limit my discussion to dogs. Now, having said that, I think this Elevette company that I spoke of, they had just introduced a cat line. And so my gut feeling is that the same indications would benefit cats, the joint pain, especially the itch. You don't see as many seizure in cats. Epilepsy is much less common in them. But the reality is that, again, I'll use whatever you can prove to me is safe and effective, I will use in the patients in my care.

Kirk:  Okay, well, I'm just going to duck back to what you said. So you have dealt with dogs with THC toxicity. You've dealt with it and it's just observational support.

Dr. Kevin:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. You know, if they get really depressed, you're not going to go and throw a catheter in their arm and go and support them with lactated ringers and the like. But the reality is that generally it's just, you know, it's just that you just have to let it burn off, man. You just have to let to burn off.

Kirk:  Yeah, and feel for the poor guy.

Dr. Kevin:  So, one thing I'm going to mention for the sake of your listeners is I'm in business. I run a website called www.helpingpetslivelonger.com and that's exactly what I do. Not only with CBD products, but also with prescription longevity drugs and throwing in a consult or two. And for your listeners, Kirk, I also have a website, just a one-pager, www.freevetcall.com. Www.freevetcall.com, good from the U.S., good from Canada. It's just simply a link to my calendar and if any of your listeners have questions about their pet's health, they're welcome to set up a consult appointment for me on FreeVetCall.com. There's no charge to it and I will help you guys however I can.

Trevor:  Kirk, I guess my big summary from this is his three big CBD things for pets and he seems to focus on CBD and not just pets, dogs, seizures, skin itch and pain management, especially sort of joint inflammation. So interestingly, other than the skin ith, those really jive closely to the human

Kirk:  Yeah, very much so. It's funny, you know, remember back when we talked to the fella at Expo in Winnipeg some, what, two thousand?

Trevor:  Many years ago.

Kirk:  Many years ago and he was using it for anxiety CBD and anxiety but this was interesting I found Dr. Kevin to be an evidence-based vet. A self-described longevity vet and as I said in the opener if you go to our YouTube channel he talks a little bit more about the longevity practises he has with the dogs I enjoyed sharing stories about my dog River now I keep referring to River as a retriever, retriever. Well, River is a black lab retriever labrador retriever but black lab with a little husky cross. So he stands, he stands what maybe six inches, maybe a foot taller than most black labs. So it's a big dog at 100 pounds. What stuck out? What stuck for you out in this interview for you, Trevor. What came away for you?

Trevor:  One of the the pearls now this is not a you know go give your dog a gummy but maybe because we've all heard THC bad for dogs and we're not saying and you and I are not vets and neither of us are saying go give THC to your dog but it was interesting that he sort of stressed it might not be as as toxic or dramatic or as big a deal especially for a bigger dog than than we we might have been led to believe.

Kirk:  You're talking about CBD here.

Trevor:  No, no, THC. THC Intoxication.

Kirk:  Yes, that's correct. That's one of the things that came up with some of the myths of chocolate, for example. I mean, we've always been told you don't give your dog chocolate because it will cause seizures. Well, I liked his answer, it's a good answer. It's by weight, right? Don't give your, don't, give your.

Trevor:  Tiny dog,.

Kirk:  ...give you your small, yeah, your dog. Don't give your dog.

Trevor:  Don't get my dog a chocolate bar.

Kirk:  Yeah, you know, I enjoyed this conversation. Dr. Kevin, thank you for approaching us. He approached us an ask similar to other guests that have come forward. It's a good story. I plan to have another pet related story soon. And hopefully the two episodes will become series.

Trevor:  Yeah, no, that sounds good. Thank you very much, Dr. Kevin. I think it was another good one. Everyone, remember to come back.

Kirk:  Kirk.

Trevor:  Oh, who are you? Let's do that at the end again.

Kirk:  Yes, I am Kirk Nyquist, I'm the registered nurse and you have found Reefer Medness, the Podcast found on...

Trevor:  And I'm Trevor Shewfet, I'm the pharmacist. Kirk will tell you where you find us. I'll tell you where you find us.

Kirk:  On all the platforms and what we need from you is we need you to tell others. We've said often that we're not shared readily on meta suites and so we get shared by listeners telling other people to listen to us. So give us a rating, Reefer Medness The Podcast, go to our website, Dr. Kevin's related links will be there. I've asked him to send me some papers, if there's any vet related papers I can put it on the page. Yeah, learn about using cannabis products with your dogs at Reefer Medness The podcast. Enjoy!