Episode Transcript

Audio Transcript

Trevor: Kirk we're back.

Kirk: Hey Trevor how's it going?

Trevor: Um good good um as nobody else in the recording world knows we're starting a little late because uh I'm running a little bit late this morning.

Kirk: It's eight o'clock in the stinkin' morning, buddy. It's not late by any means.

Trevor: Well, no, but I said, sure, let's be here at eight. And then I had to message you, I'm not going to make eight. Let's go 8:15. And because I don't have kids at the house anymore, I'm going to blame the dog. She had to go for the 4:30 Pee, so that's fine. We went out, but she got distracted by what I can only describe as young men yelling a little bit, and then honking of a car, and some slamming of some car doors. Uh, got her very excited and barking at bring her inside. She would not calm down after any of that barking. So, you know, basically I've been more or less up since 4:30, which you'd think would make me on time for things, but I think sometime during my morning coffee, I must've zoned out there as I lost a little bit of time.

Kirk: Well, and you live in a very quiet neighborhood.

Trevor: I do. So, and without making everything hockey related, I think everything might have been hockey related. Our local team, the Dauphin Kings, looks like they lost the Turnbull Cup last night. That was sort of the last round of this part of the playoffs. And I thinking all those young men. One of our neighbors billets a king. And when I finally did go for a walk with Rosie this morning, there was lots of cars in that area. So I'm thinking they maybe they were having a post game consolation event last night. So that might've been what set Rosie off this morning.

Kirk: Well, you think they lost. Why would you think that they lost?

Trevor: Because if I Googled it right, that's what Google told me.

Kirk: Oh, OK, OK.

Trevor: I'll firmly admit I did not watch the Dauphin Kings last night. Sorry, Kings. I think you might have been watching the Oilers, though, getting next round of the playoffs.

Kirk: Well, that would be Michelle. She's in Alberta right now. She is definitely watching the Oilers.

Trevor: So a little weird time capsule for those of you listening in the future. Yes, we're mid NHL playoffs. We are mid MGHL playoffs, the Oilers have made the next round, the Jets hopefully tonight make the next around. Anyway, hockey, all hockey all the time. And we're supposed to hit like 26, 27 degrees this weekend. All very, very weird for the beginning of May in Dauphin.

Kirk: Yeah, May 2nd, 2025, in the center of the continent, we're giving a weather report. And it's all about hockey and maybe we'll have plus weather today. Canada, welcome to Canada.

Trevor: All right. So now that we've got the dog weather and hockey report and Kirk, you have a very interesting person Amanda to talk to and just tell us a little bit about her and you know, you were saying you in your various roles over the years, you've dealt with with various people from various government departments and Amanda is pretty high up

Kirk: Yeah, yeah, I've been trying to get a story from the Manitoba. Well, OK, as listeners listen, I get the name of the agency wrong in the middle of it. And she was kind enough to just smile at me and the conversation carried on. So we are speaking to Amanda Creasy. And she is the Director of Strategic Services and Public Affairs at the Liquor, Gaming, and Cannabis Authority of Manitoba. And what I was saying to you is that, yeah, I've, in past jobs, past roles, I worked with government and government bureaucrats. And to have a Director speak to us, that's, I mean, she runs an entire department. She is the lead of that department, and we got to speak to her, and she was very gracious. And listeners felt that Trevor was, that somehow I was going to be an attack dog or I was going to a Pierre Poilievre or something and I was gonna...

Trevor: I did think that you might, because you have, you're very passionate, have some strong opinions. I kind of thought there might have been a tirade or two and you were very good. And she honestly was very good and gave me answers I didn't, I hadn't thought of.

Kirk: Well, I was going to save the tirade for you, actually, but no, sometimes when I get frustrated with government, because government is responsible to the people that elect them, and when you think about cannabis, and this is what Amanda pretty much says in this interview, is that the government listens to people. Now, what people have to understand in Manitoba... Our province is in the center of Canada, pretty much the center of the North American continent. It's a small populated region that's larger than most states, probably larger than Texas. I'm not sure. Is anything larger than Texas? Not sure. No. No, but we were a very large jurisdiction. And when cannabis came legal in 2018, we had a conservative government. And they set it up very conservatively, and like they set up private retail stores, which we talked briefly about, but they also were very, very conservative in their implementation, right? And we talk about this, there's a bunch of things that makes Manitoba unique. First of all, we weren't allowed our grow, and the reasons the conservative government gave, gave me reason to rant. I mean, come on. The reasons they said that we couldn't have grow at home was that they were gonna talk about houses molding and children dying, right? A year and a half ago, our government changed. The NDP came in. Meanwhile, there's a big, huge movement, lawsuits about why can't we follow the federal legislation and allow us to grow?

Trevor: Tobagrown, Jesse Lavoie, previous guest.

Kirk: Yeah, and a previous episode, just Google it on our webpage, ReeferMed.ca. So I've been waiting to try to talk to the new government for a long time. And when you live in a democracy, you get the government you deserve. And Wab has done a wonderful job. Wab Kinew, I've met the man. I've had conversations. I've have opportunity to rant with him about issues. Health care is primarily one of them.

Trevor: Wab Kinew, the current premier of Manitoba.

Kirk: Correct. I figured everyone knows that. He's probably going to be a federal soon. I think the federal NDP will probably be plucking him out of the fold soon. But however, so getting to talk to the government was special to me, and I wanted to hear their words. Now, Amanda's was very good, and she just reinforced how government works. And you're right. In my past lives, I have worked with governments. I've worked with Directors. At the Director level. In some cases. So I understand the role of the Director in the department. So I was quite impressed that she would speak to us, which was nice of her. But what she basically stresses, you know, is that cannabis is still relatively new. You always hear Trevor and rant about alcohol and how alcohol is accepted in our society when it costs us so dearly. Cannabis destroys community, not cannabis, sorry, alcohol destroys communities. I've seen it in healthcare, and as much as I consume alcohol, I like alcohol, I make alcohol, I drink it responsibly.  Society has a debt to pay with alcohol. Cannabis is a different substance, but yet government all around the world always compares alcohol, tobacco smoking, gambling, all these substances that we misuse to cannabis. When I seem to view cannabis differently. Cannabis does not cost society money. It actually gives back to society. So yes, you're right. I was anticipating this discussion because I had some questions I wanted to ask. And she kind of answered everything when she said, you know, cannabis is just so new. We're still going into it. And it's easier to have stiffer regulations and soften them than to go the other way around. So yeah, so we have that's, that's the rationale. So they they eased, they eased, they repealed the no grow in home, and they allow us to grow at home. But there's other nuances and we get into the nuances. And so should we get into the conversation and people will hear that?

Trevor: Yes, let's listen to Amanda. She's very well spoken and and like I said off air She said some things that surprised me. So let's let's hear from Amanda.

Kirk: All right, Please introduce yourself

Amanda Creasy: So I'm Amanda Creasy and I'm the Director of Strategic Services and Public Affairs at the Liquor, Gaming and Cannabis Authority of Manitoba.

Kirk: Great, fantastic. And I've been trying to get an interview with you guys for quite a while. And really, it's all about Manitoba. On May 1st, we are going to be allowed to grow our four plants. Maybe, I guess, I'll let you explain what is this four plants we're going to be able to grow.

Amanda Creasy: So this is the four plants that are allowed for recreational cannabis. So this a separate from the medical stream and this is four plants that became allowed in October 2018 when the federal government passed the Cannabis Act. So until recently, Manitoba and Quebec have been the only provinces that didn't have home-grow and then obviously in Manitoba that's gonna change on May 1st home-grow will be coming here.

Kirk: Yeah, and yes, the Conservative government was in play when 2018 was here. And of course, you probably are well-known of the whole Toba-grown issue. And I think Wab...

Amanda Creasy: Yeah, the court case and everything.

Kirk: Yeah, and I think Wab signed the flag and stuff. So Wab Kinew our premier promised that this would happen. So congratulations, it happened. So obviously, there are some interesting things about this law. Do you want to just sort of highlight the key points of it?

Amanda Creasy: Yeah, so the laws, the actual bill and the regulations that are coming in are fairly simplistic in that they repeal the prohibitions that were in the Liquor Gaining and Cannabis Control Act for home grow. So they now allow anybody 19 and older in their residence to have the four plants that are allowed under the federal legislation. There's rules about making sure that those plants and the growing is done as safely as possible to keep it out of the hands of young people. And then there are some provisions that have changed for the retailers so that all the licensed retailers who are currently selling cannabis products can now sell plant products, whether that be seeds or clones or live plants, but I suspect it will be more seed product, but they'll be able to now sell to anybody so the growing won't be just restricted to medical patients. As it is right now.

Kirk: Okay, so something that's unique with Manitoba is that we're allowed to grow our four indoors and not outdoors. Is there a rationale for that?

Amanda Creasy: Yeah, so we know that a lot of the other provinces do allow for outdoor growing. Some of the hesitation in fully opening the regulations to allow outdoor grow is that the government is, you know, taking a cautious approach with cannabis policy. You know, we have a newer government who's getting up to speed on this file. They have a lot of concerns across different industries about safety, especially about like young kids, things like that. And so they've decided to have growing for indoor only. We realized that there is folks do want the ability to grow outdoors, but for right now they're taking a measured approach, allowing the homegrown, allowing it to be indoors secure area. But it's one of those things that I think we'll continue to monitor post once this goes legal on May 1st. To see how things go, what the compliance rates look like, as well as the demand for outdoor grow. So that's something we will be monitoring, but at this time, they're gonna stay in the indoor space and we'll keep an eye on whether there's expansion in the future.

Kirk: Fair enough, fair enough. I gotta ask the question, what's the measure they're afraid of? What are they worried about? What's the difference indoor, outdoor?

Amanda Creasy: You know, that's, yeah, it's a challenging one to answer, because I know, you know, you can make the argument that, you know, with the other provinces, it still has to be secure outdoor. But I think with cannabis, you know, cannabis is somewhat at a disadvantage because of it's it's only been legal for a short period of time. And so there's still a lot of, as you mentioned, stigma. There's hesitation. There's unknowns. You know we're waiting for research and data and evidence to to grow alongside the maturing of the industry. And so I think for regulatory purposes, it's much harder to make things stricter later if there's an issue as opposed to taking a more measured approach in opening up the industry and so I thinks some of it might be a hesitation because of the unknown you know, and, and that's, you know I think that's just some of the things we deal with as a regulator because we're only just over the six-year mark with cannabis whereas alcohol we've got decades of you know it being societally acceptable and legal and people being used to it and so I think it's one of those things of over time as people get more used to recreational cannabis you will probably see things starting to relax.

Kirk: Well, that was a very measured answer, and I appreciate that. And it was. It was a good answer, because my next question is, obviously, alcohol has been around a long time, and we know the damage alcohol does. Now, the conservative government, when they came in in 2018, made cannabis 19 years old and kept alcohol at 18, because we're an 18 province. So is there a reason why the NDP government didn't choose to just harmonize the age.

Amanda Creasy: Yeah, yeah, I can't necessarily speak on behalf of like, the political side of government and all the choices they made. But, you know, with the conservative government we had previously, there was a lot of questions around, you know, what was the right age? What are the impacts of cannabis use on like people with, you know, developing brains? And, you know, from a regulatory perspective, we looked at it, you know alcohol is 18, it shares a lot of risks similar and things like that, but you also get folks who work on the public health side who have concerns about you know brain development and things like that and and suggest and that you know it wasn't safe until 25 and it's like well where do you have some middle ground between those those different stakeholders and those different viewpoints and again like I mentioned before I think some of it's the fear the fear of the know, if you let this go too loose, are you putting folks at risk unintentionally? And so for right now, I think what government is doing right now is they're focusing on some of the key issues that have been brought up by, you know, the public and different stakeholders in the industry. I can't say that they would never harmonize the age. It's just one of those things of, you with them only being about a year and a half into their term, they focused on the home grow. Have some other legislation up right now about alcohol and cannabis that they're trying to make some changes there and I think it's just because that's all embedded in legislation it can be really challenging to get those changes through and so it's you know you there's only so much room on a legislative calendar for for different issues um but it's it's one of those things I can't say for sure if they're planning to. Um, but again, it's, it isn't, we are an odd case having 18 for the one and 19 for the other, the other provinces have harmonized. Um, but, you know, I wouldn't, I would say that it's not in the cards, but I just, we haven't heard that that's a priority right now. So we don't have any things in the works right now for the age.

Kirk: That's a fair comment. The other question I have is liquor, gaming, cannabis, sorry, alcohol, of course. You guys are involved with socials and making the regulations for people doing socials, right? So I have a real concern that with the stigma and how government has unrolled it, people are left with vagueness and there's a vagueness that happens right now in Manitoba because if you read the law carefully the only place the government allows you to consume cannabis is in your domicile. Like if you've read it carefully there's nowhere else you can you can consume cannabis.

Amanda Creasy: There is a prohibition right now on public consumption. There's only an exception for topical products can be used in public spaces, which I realize is very limited. But yeah, Manitobans are a bit restricted that they can only consume basically in their residence. And then if your residence happens to be, you know, a rental property or condominium, there can be further rules because cannabis also falls under the rules under the Smoking and Vaping Product Protection Act. So, you know, those general smoking prohibitions and things like that. So yeah, it can be difficult, I imagine, for folks in rentals and things like that to find a space where they can consume legally.

Kirk: So in your job, as the government spokesperson, how would you help someone? How would you someone that is not allowed to consume cannabis in their home? Where would you suggest?

Amanda Creasy: I mean, one of my questions to somebody would be like, how are you taking your cannabis? Because now that edibles have been legalized, there's a lot more product options for people. And you're probably likely able to consume products that aren't vaping and smoking based. So there is that option for people that if you're in the comfort of your home, having an edible, there's no smell from that. There's no residual effects to the people around you for that um that might be an option. We have had um some inquiries about I know you know some states have had like consumption spaces like public spaces similar to like where you'd have a drinking establishment for alcohol but somewhere where people could consume liquor. We've actually run public consultation on that twice um in since legalization and there there just hasn't really been a huge demand or uptake for it um. It's not something that we necessarily would never see in the future, but I think with the impacts of the pandemic and the challenges faced by the hospitality industry that they're still feeling as a result of that, I think cannabis is a challenging substance in that type of situation because the mark ups, the mark ups aren't the same as with alcohol and people don't consume it in the same way. And because it can't cohabitate with alcohol, You know, it's. I can't speak on behalf of entrepreneurs, but I would suspect that if you're looking at the dollars and cents, you're probably getting more value per square foot on alcohol sales than you would on cannabis. And so for folks, yeah, it's, if you are in a property where you don't get to make the decisions about smoking, right now we'd suggest people to try the wide range of products that we see growing and growing every day. I think the other day I saw macaroni and cheese at one of the retailers was like you know there's so there's there's a lot more um options and how you can take your cannabis.  I think that has helped because that first year um 2018 and 19 that would have been tough because we only had the dry bud and so that would've been difficult for folks you would have space

Kirk: Yeah, and to be honest, I haven't really heard that law enforcement—I mean, if you're consuming cannabis responsibly, I have not heard law enforcement really going out of the way to bother people. But it is interesting that government regulations have put people in a situation that people that enjoy flower you know, that they're actually put into a situation where they've got to break a law to enjoy something that's federally legal. So there's a paradox, and I'm hoping the government recognizes that.

Amanda Creasy: Yeah, and I think it's one of those things, you know, working on the regulatory side, I think, it's a lot of things that we were like, you know, five years from now, ten years from now, like we've seen the pattern, like I can go back in our records and see the changes that have happened for alcohol over the last, you know, eighty, ninety years, and and I truly believe that that probably is going to happen for cannabis, but it will take time and people getting more used to it, more comfortable, you the government's getting more comfortable. The evidence to show that it's not the end of the world that some people thought it was going to be in 2018. And so how quickly those changes happen, I can't say, but I do foresee that over time we will see some relaxing of the rules.

Kirk: Okay, and that leads me into the next question, socials. I mean, Manitoba's known across the country, right? I mean I come from British Columbia and I knew about Manitoba socials in the 70s and I moved to Alberta and people talked about Manitoba’s socials in the 90s. So we have socials here and I'm involved with volunteer organizations we put on socials, so at an alcohol acceptable social, you step outside and people are freely consuming a product, cannabis, in illegal spaces. So are we ever going to see permits where we can have an outdoor consumption spot for cannabis at socials?

Amanda Creasy: Um, not right now, not while the public prohibition is in the law. So that would have to get repealed. Um, I believe Alberta has had a couple. I think there's, there's been a few at festivals and things like that. Um, but right now in Manitoba, it's, it again, it is one of those things of immediately no, because you need the consumption prohibition to be relaxed in order to have that. Um similar to like you know you can't just drink on the street legally you have to be in a space that's got the permit for it um but uh yeah we we'd need um legislative change to have that prohibition either um repealed or have it modified so that similar to liquor that public consumption can happen but only in these specific circumstances like a licensed establishment or a permitted function, things like that. So I don't see it happening in the next few years, but it's one of those things that, yeah, you know, I think as other provinces have, you know pilot cases and things like that, and we're able to see what were the impacts, what were challenges. I suspect it's something that will be faced with of people wanting to have that option, but it will also be a test for what do the event spaces want to allow as well, right? So I don't know, I have absolutely no idea how banquet halls and things like that would feel about it, but there is also that side of it too.

Kirk: When you look at the Winnipeg Folk Festival, I mean...

Amanda Creasy: Oh, yeah. The Folk Festival. You know, the Folk Festival, absolutely. Sure. I think that's, that's probably the perfect test environment. But, you know, but some of them, some of them that have alcohol licenses and things like that, you know, we, you know, I'm sure you can appreciate with the nursing background, like, the evidence we do have that, you know co-consuming can be check has a lot of challenges and risks to people. And so right now, we don't let them coexist. And If push comes to shove and people have to pick, well, either have cannabis or either have liquor, you know, that might add some challenges to logistics of hosting some of these things. But outdoor festivals, things like that, I could see in the future there might be space for that.

Kirk: That's a good answer. Going back to the four, and you made the comment in the start of the interview about commercial businesses are gonna be allowed to get seeds and clones and stuff. Obviously, May 1st is the day. Do you believe possibly that some businesses thought ahead, or do you think it's gonna take business time to get these things in play?

Amanda Creasy: Um, it might take a bit of time. Liquor& Lotteries is responsible for securing that product from the licensed producer. So as the wholesaler, they get all the product from across the province. They have sent out communication to all the licensees to let them know that they're bringing seeds, how they can get them along with their other products. I believe they're focusing just on seeds right now, not live plants. But yeah, they wouldn't have been able to order anything earlier because we're in that you know awkward stage of it's not allowed yet not until May 1st but um MBLL already has those supply chain connections with all those suppliers so I'm sure it will not take long at all for the seed product to get across the province just like it's already going to our neighbors in Ontario and Saskatchewan so I'm sure they won't have to wait too long to get.

Kirk: Elbows up here. Are we able to, like if I could get seeds from Alberta in the mail, is Manitobans allowed to get their seeds from other provinces, or do we have to buy them from Manitoba?

Amanda Creasy: Yeah, you're supposed to buy them from Manitoba. Right now we still have inter-provincial, like if you happen to be physically in Alberta and you buy, but you're not supposed to be like buying online and having shipped over here. So there is still some inter-provincial trade barriers on that. But again, as we see with the economic climate right now and I know the premiers are in discussions about relaxing some of those things, we might see some of that change.

Kirk: And I guess one final question is Farmgate. When do you ever, I mean right now we have a brand new, it's about a year and a half old, we have great brewery in town, we promote it as a tourist destination, you know, micro-breweries, micro distilleries. We also have a cannabis license producer in town. When do foresee he'll be able to sell his cannabis from his front gate?

Amanda Creasy: I don't know. It's a good question, but I don't know that I have really any idea of when that might happen. You know, Manitoba has, as I'm sure you're aware, a smaller footprint in the production side of things than other provinces. So we don't have as many producers to lobby for that kind thing. It's really not something that I have enough of a um finger on the pulse to know and sort of timelines or even what you know with Travel Manitoba or things like that like do they have any insights on the demand for things like that or how that's looking in other provinces. I mean it's one of those things that you would hope over time that um governments would recognize um wanting to have more entrepreneurial freedom and flexibility and things like but um as far as a timeline on something like that, I couldn't even guess.

Kirk: Yeah, no, that's fair. And Manitoba is actually quite interesting in the sense that, again, a conservative government implemented it, and they made it private entrepreneurs. So we have private stores here, whereas in other provinces they have provincial stores. So that is kind of cool. Do you ever foresee the NDP government doing that, creating or just keeping it as private?

Amanda Creasy: I don't, we've not heard anything from government that they intend to do that. I mean, that would be very difficult at this point, you know, like even though the market is still relatively new in terms of only being just over six years old, it is still well established. You know, we have over 200 licensed retailers in Manitoba, and I think to flip that or two. Um, either flip it to public or to make it some sort of hybrid where the government was now competing with the retailers. I think that would be really challenging. And I think, that that would be really hard for the retailers, we have a lot of like independent retailers who are not part of big chains, um, who are serving a lot of the smaller rural communities, you know, and I don't suspect that that's something they would want to do. I mean, the province is still involved in the wholesaling and the procurement of product from the licensees. So there is still that involvement there. But I think that the model is established and it's sort of ingrained now. If the roles had been flipped and we had had an NDP government then, it might have looked different, but I think now it's got its roots are in. I think it's, I think this is what we're gonna see for the foreseeable future. There obviously will always be government involvement, like us being regulatory and things like that, but I think you'll probably still see a private cannabis market for the foreseeable future

Kirk: Fantastic. Is there any question I didn't ask that you were expecting me to ask?

Amanda Creasy: Oh, that's a good question. No, I think you asked a lot of good questions. And I appreciate the opportunity to chat about cannabis. We do a lot work as a neutral, nonpartisan regulator. We're not for or against any of our industries. And so we do recognize that cannabis, a lot people have a lot of learning to do and understanding the product and the industry and how it affects people and we're really glad that people are getting the message out that this product can be used safely and responsibly. I would direct people, if they're interested, we have a lot of public education materials on cannabis and education about how people can engage with these products safely and how to find retailers close to them. You know, visit our websites, lgcamb.ca. There's lots of great stuff on there about cannabis, but yeah, no, I think you're asking a good range of questions.

Break here

Kirk: Fantastic. Okay Trevor, so I'm out walking my dogs, my dog yesterday, and I'm out on Selo Grounds. I got a dog story. I'm out at Selo grounds and I am also keeping a friend's dog. So I've got Coco and I've got my dog River and we'll walk in Selo Ground. Now Selo Grounds is where we have festivals in Dauphin. It's a I don't know, probably 10, 15, 8, no maybe longer, maybe I don't know, ten acres of land, maybe bigger than that, this big. Big piece of parcel, we have the Country Fest there, we have Ukrainian Fest there. And I'm walking my dogs, I'm going through the North Gate trails, the bike trails, and the dogs are gone. They're gone, they have, like I walk my dogs off leash, they're big dogs, and they are after a deer. So I walk the trail, looking for the dogs, I go up on top of the cliff, I'm looking down into the valley, looking for dogs, there's no dogs. And I can lose my dog, but losing a friend's dog is a whole different thing.

Trevor: Yeah, that's good. That's good

Kirk: So I'm walking, going, what the hell, right? The dogs are gone. So what do you do? So I walk back to my van, van hoot. I lay on the bed and I have a little nap thinking the dogs will come back. And this is when you sent me the post saying, hey, really like the interview, looking forward to doing the wrap. When do you want to do it? And I'm thinking, I just lost somebody's dog, man. I don't want to talk about the podcast. Anyways, so you sent the message to me. And as I was snoozing, the dogs raced into the van, licked my face, soaking wet, frothing. They had a lot of fun, but they were gone for a good hour chasing deer. Now, anyways, I should let you talk about Amanda. What'd you think of the interview?

Trevor: No, no, no. I'm really, really glad how that story ended. I think everybody is.

Kirk: Oh yeah, Coco came back, River came back.

Trevor: So the cannabis lounges, she talked about many, many things. And you mentioned up front, and it's worth stressing, because I agree, too, that it's kind of the thesis of everything she said is when you're government, and you're not sure, and things are new, start strict and reduce your restrictions later, because it's so much easier than starting with no restrictions and trying to add them in. So, I... I think that was a great sort of thesis for almost everything cannabis related she talked about. Cannabis lounges. Um, I didn't think, and, and again, she's not an expert, we're not an expert, but you know, we've mused about why we don't have cannabis lounges. And I, and she mentioned, and I hadn't thought about this is they might in the current, we'll call it tax structure. They're not going to be that profitable. You know, when you are, uh, when You're a bar. For lack of a better word, an alcohol-serving establishment. You know, you buy stuff from the Manitoba Liquor and Lotteries, you put a profit margin on it, then you serve it, and that's where you make your money. And yes, I'll blame the government here a little. Because taxes are so high on cannabis right now, it would be really hard to convince someone to come into a lounge, buy cannabis stuff from you, consume it there for way more than the already relatively high prices they could consume it at home. So you know, that would be hard for an entrepreneur to make money. And if an entrepreneur said, okay, bring it, bring your own and, and, you know consume here again there's why do you charge a membership fee a here's a ten dollar scone You know, here's a $20 cup of coffee. Like I don't, it's, I hadn't really thought about the fact and there's got to be an entrepreneur smarter than me, but as compared to opening a bar where it's relatively straightforward, how you would make money. It's going to be a little less straightforward just besides all the regulation stuff about how you open a cannabis smoking lounge and make it a profit.

Kirk: Yeah, interesting, that's your first point, you know, as a pharmacist and fee-for-service healthcare provider. A little jab. However, I'm a fee- for-service healthcare provider too, but however, the language that I really enjoyed, wrong word, that perked my ears is that she used language that I am actually going to use. I think she's influenced me here. When she used the word public consumption prohibition. And she used the word prohibition several times. I actually wrote it down on a piece of paper, prohibition. And I never thought of it that way. And in the many years that I've been doing this, I've never used the words prohibition when I'm doing my rants. But essentially, although we still have, we have cannabis is legal. In Manitoba, there's no public consumption. You're not allowed to consume flower in public. Which is, to me, a bug in my bonnet, which is one of the rants that I think you're probably afraid that I was going to jump on her about.

Trevor: Maybe. Yeah, maybe a little bit.

Kirk: Because think about it. You live in a condominium that they have a strata law that says you can't consume cigarettes, and tobacco and marijuana are seen as combustibles, even though they're completely different substances, it's a different matter. So where does someone who lives or rents... Allowed to consume. You can't go into a parking lot. Well, I guess the parking lot might be a private facility. But unless it says that you're allowed to consume there, where does someone consume? So I'm going to sort of take your thought about an entrepreneur opening up a lounge and saying maybe there should be places that designated as smoking places. I mean people do smoke cigarettes. As much as as much as the health care professional, I don't like that. However, everyone has the right to do their own gig. We're allowed to smoke a cigarette outside, you know, you can go to an airport in Vancouver and consume tobacco in the smoking area and cannabis in the smoking area. Why couldn't they have done that with cannabis in Manitoba? Why couldn' t they have opened it up? That disappoints me. And when she used the word prohibition-

Trevor: Well, I'm going to jump in on that because I think that's where she was talking about. I don't think at right now there has, you know, yes, terrible capitalists. I don t think there is the demand from the person from person, people, entities wanting to open up a smoking lounge to go to the government and say we would really like to open up the cannabis lounge here because.

Kirk: I'm not talking about a lounge, I m not talking about a large, I am talking about an outdoor space.

Trevor: Oh yeah, but but but it rolls.

Kirk: But don't you think that's a government excuse? Just because people are not asking for it doesn't necessarily mean we don't need it. For example, nobody's asking for speed limits on highways.

Trevor: Well, I think they would argue, and again, remember I'm pro-cannabis, I'm just doing a little devil's advocate here. I think the government would say nobody needs to smoke cannabis. Now, you know, there's medical exemptions, et cetera, but if we're strictly on the rec end, like nobody needs a drink a beer, nobody needs have a cigarette, and nobody needs smoke cannabis, and I guess the other, again, I should be able to get some nuances and get people to, it's a legal substance, they should be able to consume it if they wish. But the argument, if I was in a rental unit or a condo, is I might not want to smell my neighbor consuming cannabis. You could argue that they're not going to, yada yada, but that's always going to come up, is if they are smoking cannabis below me and all of our ducts are connected and I can smell that and I don't like that, then your freedom ends at the end of my nose.

Kirk: Completely agree with you. I mean, I was raised in a family where both my parents smoked cigarettes, and I can remember coming into my house and there was literally a fog of smoke. I can literally remember our walls were orange from tobacco smoke. Completely get it, understand it. However, government has allowed a substance legally, but your governments also said, Oh, well. Yeah, you can't really smoke it anywhere. That's unfair. And just because the public isn't sophisticated enough that they're asking, and I shouldn't say sophisticated, again, it goes back to people understanding cannabis. More people don't smoke cannabis than do smoke cannabis. But still, I think government should sometimes be responsible for giving things to us that we don't ask for. You know, and.

Trevor: That's extraordinarily rare.

Kirk: Well, of course not, because it's expensive. It's probably expensive, and it's government. We get the government we deserve, and people, if it's not on the radar, people aren't gonna ask for it. But there are people affected. I mean, we got people that live on streets that don't have lunches. We create food places for them, we create help for them. We got people who like to consume flower. Where do they consume it, if you rent? And think about how many young people cannot afford a home. Like the whole idea of not being able to form a home, so you've got a whole generation of kids that can't buy a home for economic reasons. Maybe they wanna have a little cannabis by the fire in their backyard, but their renter says no. I mean, there should be space. There should be a space someplace someone can consume. Now, having ranted on that, I do love the fact that she's promoting safer use of cannabis by suggesting where you can eat it. Which is safer in a sense, because there's no hydrocarbons, however.

Trevor: Yeah, and not to belabor this, but governments are almost never in front of anything. You know, governments, just kind of how they work are almost always reactionary. Governments don't, you know, think ahead and say, hey, this would be great 10 years from now and plan it now. That's not how governments work. Governments kind of, how they're, in fact, one of the only sort of forward thinking, And I think it might have been a mistake. Is when the Trudeau government promised to legalize cannabis because if you remember back in whatever it was 2015 they were so far behind in the polls that no one thought they were going to get a seat and at that point I think governments throw out you know, we're going to change how voting works and hey, we'll legalize cannabis just to get a little bit of air time. I'm still under the impression that that's sort of how Canada ended up with cannabis legalization is government Trudeau at that point was so far behind in the polls. They weren't going to get to seat. Why don't we throw something so we get some kind of airtime somewhere?

Kirk: Well, but this is why old men are grumpy, right? There's a reason why old man get grumpy. But you know what? Hey, here's a proactive government thing. Was it Duff Roblin built the Roblin’s ditch?

Trevor: Duff Duff Ditch.

Kirk: Duff's Ditch. That was proactive government work.

Trevor: It was, but that's very rare. And for those of you not in Manitoba, part of the province around Winnipeg, our capital and biggest city, floods, not necessarily every spring, but many springs. And many, many years ago, after a huge flood, Premier at the time, Duff Roblin, had them construct a floodway around the city, which has protected the city for many, many, may floods. But it cost an incredible amount of money. And everybody thought it was ridiculous and it took many, many years to build and how on earth could he waste so much money and of course it turned out to be a wonderful thing but that's not usually what governments do.

Kirk: Yeah, it's unfortunate we don't have forward thinking forward thinking people, but I I still believe I still This was a good interview.

Trevor: It was.

Kirk: And I enjoyed the conversation. She was she was pleasant she helped and she and she also recognized that sometimes government just has to has to do things slowly. I get it and but there's still things that you know government writes laws sometimes because they're prejudicial and and it's built on stigma. And just because, I mean, this has been my rant forever, right, that provinces treat cannabis as a substance of misuse, right? That provinces do not treat cannabis as medicine. And this is what's gotta change. This is one of the reasons why we have this podcast. And this was a discussion, I guess we should have said this up front, this was the discussion on recreational cannabis. And Amanda did discuss this because medical cannabis, licensed medical cannabis consumers of cannabis do not follow the same regulations as recreational cannabis. Somebody with a medical license can consume their cannabis in a public place, responsibly. Just don't be stupid about it. But recreational guys can't. However, we talked about Birds Hill, the Winnipeg Folk Festival. One of the largest folk festivals in Canada. It's famous for those that do folk festivals. I've been to several. I started in 1980. I went to one in 1980, saw Stan Rogers, saw Mike Post. Saw a lot of Towns Van Zandt. Saw some Tony Bird. Saw some amazing acts back in 1980 but there was cannabis everywhere and no alcohol. There were no beer gardens at folk festivals when I first started going to them. People brought plastic jugs of wine and sat on blankets and smoked reefer and drank wine out of a plastic bucket. But then they started putting alcohol beer gardens into them. And then they started not allowing smoking on the site. And now what's happened, and I find it hilarious because I've ranted about this before, one of the most socialist things ever going to an or music festival has some of the strictest rules. You know

Trevor: No, and that's a great point, that brought up two sorts of, I thought they were really interesting. One is, because you guys spend a lot of time talking about folk festivals, like the Winnipeg Folk Festival I think is well over 50 years old, like you said, probably world famous at this point, but outdoor festival, but if you were a... As far as I know, a quote-unquote cannabis license doesn't exist yet. But if it did right now, the way the rules regulations are structured, you couldn't both have a cannabis and alcohol license at the same time and you'd have to choose and go, Oh, well then yeah, if you were, if you were running an outdoor festival. You pick the one that makes money, which is the alcohol. So you know, maybe that might be a next sort of massaging of the rules is could outdoor festivals get a combined alcohol and cannabis license? Maybe even just give one. Maybe just the Winnipeg Folk Festival. See how it goes as a pilot project and when nothing terrible happens, you know maybe that's a place to start. Because like you said, especially folk festivals have used. Cannabis has you've been used at them historically for a long long time the other I just I didn't realize that Manitoba was way way way out there as an outlier that our cannabis use age and our alcohol use age were different like I knew that happened but I didn' t know we were the only only ones that weren't harmonized and yet that is a little weird

Kirk: It's a little weird. They had an opportunity, I thought, to change things. But you made an interesting point about public consumption, and she stressed this. And again, it was one of those little trigger points that I went, ah-ha! Because I am very involved with the Watson Arts Center. As you know, I volunteer a lot there. My wife's part of the executive team. We spend a lot of time at the Watson Art Center. Live music is always better at the Watsons. But often times we've said, you know, this should be a spot because everyone goes outside, they got their vape pens, and they're smoking their vapes pens outside the building, you know, and nobody's going to deal with it, nobody's gonna say anything about it. But my thought was, well, we should have an outdoor lounge where people can go smoke their cigarettes and consume their cannabis legally. That ain't gonna happen until, and here comes my trigger point, until the prohibition of public consumption is appealed and I was thinking of course so we can't get special consideration, we can't do anything special. Winnipeg Folk Festival is not going to be able to ask for public consumption of cannabis until the law changes. So there's there's no ability for her department to say okay, we'll issue you this one time to test the waters. They can't it until they change the law that was another little bit of aha moment for me of course of course Interesting.

Trevor: It really was. And Amanda, thank you very much for coming on. You were articulate and explained stuff and again gave us way more to think about. You know, Kirk and I have been talking about this for a while. We kind of thought we, you know, not lawyers, but you know we've talked about it enough that we kind of though we knew what was going on and you told us a bunch of things that we hadn't thought of so that was really good.

Kirk: Yeah, it was good. It was a good one. Another good one!

Trevor: Another good one.

Kirk: I'm Kirk Nyquist, I'm the registered nurse. We're found at Reefer Medness - The Podcast at Reefermed.ca. Our webpage is updated, new blog pieces. Yeah, lots of fun on the webpage.

Trevor: And I'm Trevor Shewfelt. I'm the pharmacist. And yeah, I really did message Kirk saying, I really enjoyed this interview because I really didn't enjoy this interview. I really hope you guys did too.

Kirk: It was hard for me to enjoy it as I was lamenting how I was going to tell my friend I've lost her dog.

Trevor: It all turned up, the interview turned out well, the dog story turned out well, everyone take a deep breath it's all it's good.

Kirk: All right.

Trevor:  Have a good day everybody