E66 - Peter Grinspoon

Remember when we could sit next to people on a plane?  Imagine sitting next to a guy who said he was a Havard trained doc, who has pictures of himself learning to read on Carl Sagan's lap, who wrote a book on overcoming his own opioid addiction and who happens to think cannabis is a great medicine for treating many conditions.  Wouldn't that be the best plane conversation ever?  Well, buckle in, put up your tray table and return your seat to the upright and locked position.  We are about the take off with Dr. Peter Grinspoon.

Friday, 26 March 2021 15:46

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Dr. Peter Grinspoon

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Episode Transcript

Trevor: We're back. 

Kirk: Hey, Trevor, how's it going good. 

Trevor: I have seen you in person in a little while. You were you're up north for a bit. 

Kirk: Well, actually, you and Doris came walking by my house a couple about a week ago and dropped off those gummy bears. 

Trevor: Yes. Gummy stars in this case. But yes. 

Kirk: Gummy stars. 

Trevor: Yeah. For those of you who haven't seen our Reefer Medness makes gummies. It's on the YouTube channel. And we made some gummies and they turned out really well. 

Kirk: They turned out good. I was removing the snow from my sexy roof from our solar panels that we got from our early sponsor, Evolve Green, way back when. People who listen to our early episodes will remember Evolve Green. I was cleaning up from snow. You guys walked by, you handed me the gummy stars and I decided, why not try one? 

Trevor: And so, what did you think. 

Kirk: About an hour? About an hour later, I was quite happy and ended up, ended up cleaning, actually. Yeah, well, we had grandchildren over, so I played with my grandchild a little bit. That was fun. But what happened afterwards is that after about five days of being a grandparent and reminding myself what it was like to have preschoolers in the house. They left, and then I had a second gummy about a week later and basically cleaned up the whole house. Like we all the stuffy bears went into the bags, all the toys went into the boxes. We dusted and the Roomba went around and cleaned and we washed the floors and got our house back into order. Went for a walk. Came home and went that was a nice afternoon. So, it was a 30-milligram afternoon for three or four hours of work. It's interesting because for me, I find it I find an opportunity to do something, whereas you find an opportunity to find a pillow. 

Trevor: Yes. Yes, I am. I am. If I'm going to take someone with high THC and to be honest, 30 milligrams is too much for me. So, I took about half. Yeah, it's. Yeah. And end of the evening thing, you know, like you said about an hour later, I'm ready for a nap, so that works just fine for me. 

Kirk: So, go out to these guys. 

Trevor: But but, we have an actual episode to talk about. 

Kirk: Yeah. OK. 

Trevor: Well you're up north, got a couple of interviews in. Got one in with Dr. Peter Grinspoon. Really enjoyed this one. And he was recommended to us from Macky from High on Homegrown, which was kind of cool. Got us in touch. So it's fantastic interview, really intelligent man and we'll get into it. And you know another one of these guys that has more cannabis knowledge in his little finger than most people you run into. So just  like real quick things. So he's a Harvard trained doc. He is a primary care doctor. So he looks after people out in the out in the real world. He's an internist at Massachusetts General Hospital. And he's not just trained at Harvard, he is now an instructor at Harvard Medical School. And it's not just him, cannabis is a big part of what he does. His dad was actually a psychiatrist and a professor of psychiatry who thought cannabis was evil until he started doing some research and found it really wasn't and he wrote a seminal book. The dad, Lester Grinspoon, wrote a seminal book called Marijuana Reconsidered in 1971. And that's still considered sort of a seminal book on why marijuana should be legalized. So there is a lot of it, a lot of cannabis knowledge in Dr. Grinspoon, Dr. Grinspoon, Senior Junior. 

Kirk: Yeah, well, multigenerational, right? I love the fact that, you know, Harvard trained. You mean Harvard trained and he's a cannabis physician. And what he was talking about, about how he uses cannabis and his five his five points. 

Trevor: Again, we'll let him tell most of his story, but some of just the really exciting stuff. Okay, so pre-pharmacy I was in physics. The thought that that's what I was going to do. And I've always been a bit of a space nerd. There's pictures of Peter Grinspoon sitting on Carl Sagan's lap, learning how to read. That just blew my mind.  Blew my mind even more that Carl Sagan was smoking pot with Lester Grinspoon, Peter's dad, and having you know, really deep conversations.  Peter Grinspoon who we interviewed, talked about, well, they always talk about Amotivational syndrome, you know, if people smoke too much pot, you know, the typical stoner who doesn't do anything, right. 

Kirk: Right. 

Trevor: Said No, I saw and it wasn't just Carl Sagan. Lots of other Harvard profs and other luminaries, smart people were coming over, visit Lester smoke a joint in the living room and have really deep discussions. So these were not a motivational. This is the type Triple A personality who goes out and gets stuff done. 

Kirk: Yeah. 

Trevor: We're getting more stuff done, arguably after a joint. 

Kirk: Yeah. This this guy is offering multigenerational understanding of cannabis. And I really like that component, because, again, I mean, I've often said that my experience with cannabis is over 40 years of being a recreational user and learning now how to be a medicinal user of cannabis and medicating mindfully. But what he what he has said is he made some comments that, you know, through my experience in the 70s, 80s and 90s and, you know, the propaganda that medical literature is thrown out at us.  And I've always sat in the back of the room going, interesting. I don't I don't experience that. Like when I consume large quantities of cannabis or THC 30 milligrams, I don't think about going to sleep. I go look in that. I like to go for a run. Back in the day when I used to run marathons, I'd go for a run, I'd have a hoot and go for a run. And it's interesting now there's lots of marathoners that are talking about it. Back in the 90s, I would have a hoot and go for a run. I could help with my muscles. I didn't have any of the science at that time. It was just what I knew about cannabis and what it did for me. So it's interesting to listen to these guys, Harvard, Harvard trained doctor, saying things that I kind of intuitively understood back in the day when I was ignorant to cannabis. You know, what's all the big deal? 

Trevor: Well, another thing I liked and will we'll honestly… we'll let him talk. But being Harvard trained, an internist, I know I say this every once in a while, when we talk to internist, but internists are the doctors' doctors. Internists are the, if I don't see evidence, the sky isn't blue kind-of-guys. And Dr. Grinspoon is still one of them. Like, as much as he is pro-cannabis, he doesn't want to do anything without the evidence. Like he thinks anecdotally that getting people off of opioids with cannabis and he talks about this, I don't want to give too much away, but he's not ready to say everybody should do that tomorrow, because in his mind, the evidence is still much better for like the methadone Suboxone than the cannabinoids. So he's still he's still cautious not to get ahead of the science, is what I'm trying to say. He's not he's and he's not he's not just cannabis is good for everything. You know, he's cannabis a good for a lot of things. But, you know, he doesn't want to get too far ahead of the science. 

Kirk: But and this is like, I'm going to have some fun with you, Trevor. But what you did capture in your interview is that the five points he makes and I want people to really pay attention, though, is one of the first things he said in his five points was that you can't hold pain medication from someone.  Back again, in the eighties when I was starting over as a nurse and doing para-medicine and working on ambulance and discussing paramedic should have analgesics on ambulances are not. The big debate was if someone has pain, the human should not have to live with pain. Right. That was the big thing. So doctors at the pain scale, I can even remember being at this conference with our medical director and the owner of the ambulance. The owner of the ambulance is about ten years on me. So he would have been, I think in those days he was in his late forties. I would have been in my early, late thirties. And he came up to the doctor after the after the presentation and said, you know, what that presentation said is that I have the right not to live with pain. So, I can remember from that point forward and again in practice, how the pain scale, how people were always given injections for pain. People weren't expected to live with pain. So we and he's saying here, Peter, Doctor Grinspoon is basically saying that people have the right to have medications. But should it be opiate? Should opiates be the first choice? And I like how he says that you know, with chronic opiate therapy, you might be able to augment it with cannabis and the results that he's had, people with chronic pain, cannabis can be used instead of opiates. If you know, if it's a chronic pain, you don't maybe need all that opiates. And what he's finding is that if you do give people cannabis with their opiates, they're using less opiates. Now, without getting too far ahead, you've also done another interview, which we're going to talk about, where that also comes out in the research that they're finding that actually not just clinical observations, but actual clinical research suggesting the same thing, that cannabis, cannabis can be used in conjunction with opiates. So it's something to talk about. 

Trevor: Opioid sparing and the other things. That's where and he'll talk about it more. But just it's worth mentioning his people, you know, doctors, what do they know about opioid addiction? So if you're one of those, Dr. Grinspoon's again your man, because unfortunately, it's very common in health care in general. It's not talked about much, but addictions in the in the health care professions... 

Kirk: We raised we it in One Less Nurse. 

Trevor: Yeah. It's fairly common. And Dr. Grinspoon is openly saying that was him too.  He literally has a book, Free Refills. A Doctor Confronts His Addiction. So Dr. Grinspoon no knows from firsthand experience about opioid addiction and what it takes to treat it and then knows all sort of the medical stuff around it as well. So, again, couldn't be a better guy to talk to it than the Dr. Grinspoon. 

Trevor: And again, he brings in the science here and the whole the whole science of the methadone program. You and I have discussed this before and I don't remember who actually gave me the definition. It could have been a conversation you and I had. But I always, always you know, in the north, we have the methadone program, not methadone. 

Trevor: The Suboxone. 

Kirk: Yeah. Suboxone program where people come and I have to observe them and I give them they have a lock box and they go away with the lock box. But I always thought, you know, we're just transferring the addictions from the opiate to this minor opiate, you know, Suboxone. But again, what was what I was taught is that because people are able to get some relief with the Suboxone, we can harm reduction, put them on a milder opiate, the Suboxone and keep them away from the opiates that will kill them. What he's saying is that he doesn't necessarily know yet how opiate how cannabis can help there. But he is saying that there might be an opportunity for that. And I think there's the research coming. 

Trevor: I think that's number five on his list. Yes. How about we'll let Grinspoon do his thing and then we'll come back and. 

Kirk: Sure. 

Trevor: And we'll talk about talk about his list. OK. So without further ado, Dr. Peter Grinspoon, slightly disjointed interview. Sorry, Dr. Grinspoon. It really was good talk. 

Trevor: Dr. Grinspoon, usually I start by asking people about how they got interested in cannabis, but I'm going to start a little further back. I'm going to start with your dad Lester. He was sort of a pioneer after not loving cannabis. He was sort of a pioneer in the cannabis world. Can you tell me a little bit about him? 

Dr. Grinspoon: Yeah, unfortunately, he passed away about four months ago this summer, but he was a giant in the cannabis field. He initially was anti cannabis, as many psychiatrists were back then and unfortunately are today until he did a deep dive into the literature, partially because he had a disagreement with a friend of his and partially because he was going to write a book about it. And when he did, a deep dive into the literature that the scales sort of fell from his eyes. And he realized that most of the research was just dedicated to finding harms supported by the US government, and that when you really looked at it, there wasn't much it was a house of cards upon which the whole argument for making it illegal, for prohibition and that cannabis, if you look at the big picture, was had been used for thousands of years safely as a medicine and was relatively nontoxic. And what really impressed him was that the harms of prohibition were so much more than the harms of actually using cannabis that he wrote his book, in nineteen seventy one Marijuana Reconsidered. You know, it's very well received. It was reviewed on the front page of the New York Times Book Review, and it came up very strongly in favor of legalization. At that point in the United States, support for legalization was about 12 percent. And I think in part at least due to my dad's steadfast advocacy for 50 years. Now, the support for legalization is about sixty seven percent. So, he literally has been involved for about 50 years in the legalization movement. And because of that, I've been involved in this issue my entire life. 

Trevor: Thank you. And that goes nicely into the Macky from High on Homegrown said. I should really ask you about Carl Sagan being involved in teaching you to read. Is is that is that true? 

Dr. Grinspoon: Yeah. If you pick up a copy of my memoir, Free Refills, A Doctor Confronts his Addiction because I'm in recovery from opiate addiction. I talk a lot about growing up with Carl Sagan in my living room and this perpetual cloud of marijuana smoke. But, you know, he and my dad were always having these... Oh, and there's a picture in my Twitter profile of me sitting on Carl Sagan's lap and him teaching me to read. I always joke about how I was teaching him to read, but in actuality he was teaching me to read. But it was only about two or three. But the fact is, you know, that's a great example of like, you know, as I was growing up in school, they'd be teaching us all this bullshit about cannabis, like because it's Amotivational syndrome. And then at home, like, you would not believe the luminaries that would be like sharing a joint with my dad and having these, like, brilliant discussions and like it doesn't cause Amotivational syndrome. And that's a perfect example of, like, how I learned at an early age that it was all propaganda and none of it was true. And I learned, first of all, to think for myself. Second of all, that, you know, cannabis is not what they're telling us it is. And third of all, that, you know, you just have to you just have to figure these things out on your own because there's so many different agendas when it comes to something like this. And by the time I started medical school, I felt very immune to a lot of the drug war propaganda that unfortunately made up our curriculum in medical school about cannabis. 

Trevor: Thank you. So we fast forward through medical school and now you're out on the other side. Now, you had mentioned your book about opioid addiction. Now, we opioid addiction to cannabis comes up on our podcast actually quite a bit. Now I know it's an enormous topic, but can you tell us a few sort of a summary of an enormous topic about cannabis and helping people get off of opioids? 

Dr. Grinspoon: Absolutely. I consider there to be five different ways in which cannabis could help people get off opiates. Only one of which is controversial. Well, I mean, they're all controversial, but only one of which I consider controversial. I mean, first of all, you can transition people who are on chronic opiate therapy off of opiates onto cannabis. This has to be voluntary. You shouldn't be taking opiates away from anybody. You know, people have a right to pain medication and to stay on the opiates, if that's what they prefer. But, you know, I find the quality of life is much better on cannabis for the people who do make the transition. And it's inarguably is much safer. So that's number one. Number two, I start new chronic pain patients on cannabis instead of opiates because it's as effective and much safer. So that decreases the people who are at risk from opiates. If the chronic pain is very severe, you might need opiates because opiates are stronger than cannabis. But for the mild to moderate chronic pain that, for example, many Americans who are getting more rotund, older and arthritic are suffering from cannabis is excellent for that. 

Trevor: I can't relate to any of those. 

Dr. Grinspoon: Neither can I. The third thing is you can lower the dose of opiates using cannabis because they work on the same receptors. And studies have shown you could lower the dose of opiates by about 80 percent. And that's really important because a lot of the trouble you get into the opiates in terms of overdoses and dependency and constipation and mental status changes happens to be dose related. So, if you lower the dose of opiates by up to 80 percent, that's a big win.  Number four and I can vouch for this both from personal experience and from the studies that are out there, is that cannabis is probably the best drug for opiate withdrawal syndromes. And I know we were talking before you mentioned you had heard of that as well in your clinical experience. And, you know, that's a really big deal if it keeps people, retains people in treatment. And the only one that's controversial is whether cannabis can serve the same function as methadone and buprenorphine, as a medication for opiate use disorder, as substitution treatment for opiate use disorder. Now, I know of thousands of patients that have told me that their successful use of cannabis to transition out of their opiate addiction and consider cannabis a gateway drug out of addiction. Yet at the same time, there is hard core evidence that buprenorphine and methadone lead to a 50 to 80 percent reduction in overdoses and deaths. When people who are suffering from opiate use disorder and we don't have that data yet for cannabis, it needs to be studied. And I wouldn't be surprised if we found that. However, we don't have that data yet. So given that we have the data for buprenorphine and methadone and don't have the data for cannabis, it just doesn't seem right to recommend a treatment when it's life or death where we don't have data, when we could be recommending a treatment, where we do have the data. Again, if I treat your migraine with medical cannabis and it doesn't work, you get a migraine, not the end of the world. But if I treat your opiate use disorder and it doesn't work, you can overdose or die. So it's better to stick until we have the data to the proven the proven treatments. So, again, I think in four of the ways I mentioned, absolutely helpful to lessen our dependence on opiates, which will thus help the opiate crisis. But the fifth one is still a work in progress. I also think that the novel Cannabinoids, that we're just starting to learn about the CBG, the THC8 or the Delta8THCs the CBN, the CBC's THCV which can control weight loss, blood sugar, fasting, blood sugar, potentially help us with this epidemic of obesity and diabetes, which I see every day as a primary care physician. I think these things are just profoundly exciting. You know, I have some concern that, like with CBD, the enthusiasm and the marketing is going to soar high above the actual science. So we have to keep an eye on that. But I think there's such untapped, unbelievable, unlimited potential for us to exploit the endocannabinoid system and all of these cannabinoids for health purposes and wellness purposes. Again, I mentioned this before, but it bears repeating this is an incredible, incredibly exciting time to be involved in this field. And like, every day I wake up and I'm like, wow, what am I going to read about today is really fun. 

Trevor: Thank you, Dr. Grinspoon. So I know this has been a bit of a disjointed interview, but I'll wrap up by asking, was there was there anything else you wished I'd asked than anything else you think our listeners really need to know about cannabis medicinally or otherwise? 

Dr. Grinspoon: Well, just that, you know, just like any medication, there's no free lunch. Like, there are risks. People have to be aware that, like we don't know the safety in pregnancy or breastfeeding, so it probably should be avoided unless there are no other options. That's true for a lot of medications. As a primary care doctor, I'm really cautious about any medication in pregnancy or breastfeeding. Cannabis is not excluded. You know, people have to be careful with driving. Teens shouldn't be using it. And it just, the way I look at it is that the reason cannabis is so safe is that it's safer than whatever else would be using. I mean, think of what else would be using for insomnia, you know, Ambien or, you know, some tricyclic or some other sedative, like a benzodiazepine. I mean, of course, cannabis is safer than those or what else you'll be using for pain, certainly safer than opiates. And then you'll get nonsteroidal. I mean, if they don't give you an ulcer or a heart attack, they're going to kill your kidneys. Like so many patients in their 60s or 70s whose kidneys are slowly dying. This is all preventable. If they've been using a little bit of cannabis tincture all along, they wouldn't be having renal insufficiency. So I just think that it's important that people keep cannabis in context. And I don't like how cannabis advocates dismissively dismissive, reflexively dismiss any and all harms about cannabis because it does have harms. But you've got to keep it in context and there's no free lunch with any medication, but it does appear safer than the alternative. So just encourage people to keep it all in perspective. 

Kirk: So, Trevor, there's no free lunch man, there's no free lunch. 

Trevor: No, no, no, and I really like his saying that because with all the amazing things that cannabis does and, you know, I get more convinced the more we learn about this, it is easy to forget it's not good for everything all the time. And it's still a medication that we still sort of have to treat it with respect. 

Kirk: Yes. Yes. And again, we are canna-positive on this program because we've seen a lot of positive things that come from cannabis. But it goes right back to our first episode Why Worry? There are things to consider about cannabis. It is a drug. It is something that, you know, nine percent, if not less, people can be addicted to it. There are syndromes that come from it. So and we don't know a lot about pregnancy and breast feeding that we've done two series on Prenatal consumption of cannabis. And I took an Executive Links program on it. And again, people speak. 

Trevor: How did that go Kirk? 

Kirk: Well, it was good. It was good to take education from other people. But as you and I have said, we've researched cannabis in such a way that we see the harm reduction it can have. Now, I'm not saying that people, like we don't know how cannabis works with pregnancy, but we do know that how we have reacted to people -- women who have used cannabis in pregnancy -- how we've reacted to them has also not been positive. 

Trevor: That's what the big takeaway is, that people should go back and listen to your I think we have two episodes, but yeah, that was a big well, the biggest takeaway I took from both of our experts on that is the biggest harm is you do a drug test after a woman delivers, find some cannabis metabolites in their system and take the baby away. So that's not harm reduction. 

Kirk: Well? Well, no, it's not, because the deed has been done. And if damage is going to happen, you know, the damage would have happened already. But yeah. So I agree with I agree with what he's saying is that there's no free lunch. We have to remember that cannabis is a drug and we have to respect that. But one thing I will always say about cannabis is that although it is a drug, one thing that we do know, it's from a harm reduction perspective, it's not going to kill you like opiates will or other benzo as well, where you can actually do some serious harm. I mean, people don't realize one of the one of the worst drugs out there is Tylenol, right? I mean, Tylenol. What is four grams a day man is max. You take anything more than that, your liver, gets a hit. And so, you know, if Tylenol or aspirin, if aspirin was to be legalized again, what would they allow it? 

Trevor: So it absolutely would not be an over the counter medication. And not that I'm telling this as a how-to-manual. So just but they always use Tylenol in our toxicology course as kind of a an interesting one because again, not a how to, just a for your information, if you're going to try to take your own life, Tylenol is the way to do it because you're not if you overdose on it and you're going to tell me we're going to cut this out later and we might. But if you overdose on the Tylenol, you don't feel any pain. You just you don't notice it. When you start having symptoms of liver failure, it's all it might be too late already, whereas if you overdose on aspirin, you feel sick right away. You probably end up feeling sick enough that you call someone and say, I feel terrible, take me to the hospital. Where with the Tylenol overdose, they tend to end up, by the time they need to say, I got to go to the hospital, it might be too late already. 

Kirk: I  don't think we should cut this at all. Yeah, I deal with a Tylenol overdose. Gosh, when I'm up north, I deal with them a lot, two or three a rotation. It's a common drug to overdose. And what I keep reminding my what I keep reminding my patients about is that I don't recommend it because you can take it and there's drama and we do all the things to get you to city. And we you know, we flush it out with NAC and we do all the right thing. But if you don't come in within a specific timeline and you do damage your liver, there is no going back. You die slowly over a period of four or five days to a week and there is nothing we can do. So there may there may not be any pain, but you lay in a bed with a destroyed liver and you die slowly. So I would suggest it's a horrible way to kill yourself. I'd rather have a bale of cannabis land on me from an airplane and do it suddenly. 

Trevor: But. Before we get too far. But opioids. I think it because I, I deal with people who are on Suboxone and methadone, you do as well. So we're not I'm not saying we're experts, but it comes up in our practice. But I think one, because I know it sounds silly, but it sort of surprised me when I started doing it. I think it would surprise, you know, people hear about opioid crisis, what the biggest, while there's lots of problems with opioids, but one of the problems is, you know, you've recognized you have an issue. You've went to seek help, your you know, your diagnosis. You've got an opioid use disorder and you end up on a Suboxone program. Even one of the things that surprised me is even when things are going well, you know, you've been on you've been stabilized. It's six months. It's a year. Things are going OK and you decide to sort of wean yourself off, you know, maybe against medical advice, maybe not. But you feel good. You know, I'm good. I'm good. And so, you know, you stop taking Suboxone and then something happens. Your boyfriend girlfriend breaks up with you, you lose whatever, you know, some. 

Kirk: Trigger, relative trigger. 

Trevor: Something pops up in your life; a trigger. And then you go back to the street drugs that you used to take to sort of help you deal with that pain. That's a really common time to have an overdose because you didn't realize that, you know, we brought your tolerance way down and what you used to be able to do a year ago will kill you now. Like, it's just it's so insidious how easy it is to die. 

Kirk: From Opiates. 

Trevor: From unintentionally taking more opioids than you thought you were going to

Kirk: The other problem I have with the with the Suboxone program and again, my limited experience with it, because I I'm not I don't do it daily, but I do deal with it depending on the community I am in. We do deal with it. But I and I've had these conversations with them because I purposely, I want to know what's the plan of getting you off this? And one hundred percent of the patients have said to me, plan to get me off of this. I don't know of any plan to get me off of this. 

Trevor: Well, that's because this is harm reduction. The idea is it is safer for you to be on Suboxone for the rest of your life than to get a possibly tainted supply of opioids. 

Kirk: Yeah, so so essentially. So like you've said, you go from one drug. I think we've only known one person who kicked it and cold turkey and basically went through a week and a half of hell. And as far as I know, is not on the Suboxone program or as far as I know, is on a opiates. 

Trevor: So, yeah, the our mutual acquaintance. Yes. As far as I know, that's going well.  Yeah. And we don't have a huge number of Suboxone methadone people and not a lot end up off of opioids. You know, we've had some going off the program and come back on and some on very low doses for, you know, and they're functional members of society jobs and spouses and kids and all that. So I consider that a success when, you know, they're at a low dose and continuing on with. Right. But yeah, but you're right. That is the most common question you get at the beginning from sort of new pharmacists, new techs, new people who are suddenly getting up to speed on the opioid replacement therapy is OK. So when do we get them off of it? The answer is maybe never.

Kirk: Well, again, this is now in the 60 odd episodes we've had, we are learning over and over and over again that cannabis can play a role in the opioid overdose and the opiate crisis we're having in Canada. And here's another gentleman that not only has lived experience, but as a Harvard graduate, Harvard professor who's preaching, preaching the benefits of cannabis. I don't know, Trevor. I think doctors, family physicians need to start listening to Reefer Medness - The Podcast, and learning how cannabis can help. 

Trevor: They can and at your encouragement, I think we're going to turn this one into a little bit of a mini-series. We've got at least one more episode coming up with someone who's... So Dr. Grinspoon was definitely on the clinical end, you know, the one on one patient end and lots of good stuff from there. We've got one episode coming up for sure on more of the researcher end. And I've got one guy I'm chasing who, there might actually be some guidelines out there for how to get people off of opioids and put them up with cannabis. But I haven't got that one yet by. Got the I've got the researcher in the can. I think we'll have a little opioid and cannabis mini-series.

Kirk: I think that's a good idea, Trevor. So, Kirk Nyquist I'm the nurse, Reefer Medness, The Podcast. 

Trevor: Trevor Shewfelt I'm the pharmacist, remember to come back. 

Kirk: We have new music in town. And Renee, I understand, produced it and engineered the album. So maybe we'll listen. 

Trevor: We got to hear that. Everyone needs to hear that. 

Rene: OK, OK, yes. I guess that's my cue. So I did produce and and record a four song EP for Nicole Yunker. Local Dauphin, beautiful, awesome person extraordinaire. And the music on this song is played by also a local musician named Gary Precision. And this EP is called My Dream. It's by Nicole Yunker and you can find it online to search for My Dream - Nicole Yunker. And the song is called Un Canadien Errant.

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