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E41 - Weed Rather be Working


Kirk and Trevor discuss cannabis-related workplace issues with the world’s largest advocacy group for small businesses. After one year of legalization, the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses (CFIB) surveyed their 110,000 members discovering 10,000 Canadian small business owners have confronted cannabis-related issues. As the discussion digs deep into the survey numbers we learn much of the hype promoted before legalization did not materialize yet, small business owners are still dealing with employees smelling of cannabis, poor government-offered educational opportunities, and defining impairment. Ryan Mallough, the director of Provincial Affairs for Ontario, explains how CFIB normally lobbies government for better taxes, laws, regulations, and how his organization has become the primary source of cannabis education for many of their members.

This Episode is sponsored by Strainprint

Thursday, 12 December 2019 08:08

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Music By

Dauphin Community Jazz Band
Desiree Dorion
Marc Clement

(Yes we have a SOCAN membership to use these songs all legal and proper like)

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Episode Transcript

Trevor:  Kirk, we're back.

Kirk:  Hey, Trevor, how are you? How's it going?

Trevor:  Good. And more importantly, you're back.

Kirk:  Yes, sir. I am back from 4.5 weeks in Ethiopia.

Trevor:  And we'll probably get into this more later. But what were you doing in Ethiopia, Kirk?

Kirk:  I was working for Canadian Physicians for Aid and Relief. It's a volunteer, not for profit group. And I was working in Ethiopia on a small project, Fiche Hospital and building sustainability in an emergency department of a 109-bed hospital in Ethiopia.

Trevor:  So many stories. We've got to get on to this one. But it got to tell me a little bit about I saw a picture of you on Facebook and I mean this in the nicest possible way. And a guy with an AK 47.

Kirk:  Yeah. Yeah. Well, in Fiche, there is a regional jail and often times those fellows make their way into the emergency department like prisoners do in emergency departments. Well, this guy, this guy carried a rifle and there was also some unrest in Ethiopia, when I was there, I didn't see any of it. But there was a large presence of policemen carrying rifles, army guys carrying rifles. And you could tell the difference by the color of the uniforms.

Trevor:  Wow. OK, sorry, we got to break away from Ethiopia. Well, touch on it more later. Kirk you've got a really interesting interview coming up with CFIB. Now, I know a little bit about CFIB because our pharmacy is a member.  What is CFIB and what are you guys talking about?

Kirk:  Canadian Federation of Independent Business. They put out a news release back in October when I was in Ethiopia, and Michelle sent it to both of us. So, I responded to this and asked for an interview. Essentially, their headline is "Employees Still Face Cannabis Related Challenges After a year of Legalization." So, I thought that was pretty heady little.

Trevor:  Good click bait.

Kirk:  Yeah, it was good click bait. So, I clicked and we got an interview with Ryan.  Ryan told us and explained to us what that meant to them as business. Now, there's only eight percent of their membership responded that is having a problem or an incident.

Trevor:  So, the obvious question is that doesn't sound that bad, especially when, you know, you compare that to, say, alcohol.

Kirk:  Well, certainly they didn't have those stats for us because obviously I did ask because I'm always interested in comparing cannabis with alcohol. But it is interesting, you know, with 100,000 members, ten thousand businesses that have had issues. So, there are issues out there with cannabis. But I think the bigger issue that they're having as lobbyists, or what's the word advocates of small business, is how government around the country has failed businesses. I mean, larger businesses, with 500 employees have H.R. departments. They can break down policies and create policies that are much easier than small business. I mean, small businesses don't want to spend time on H.R. policies. They want to sell or make what they make. So this business is an advocate for them. And I guess what's happening is the government really has not stepped up and offered help to small businesses with when it comes to cannabis.

Trevor:  Listen to what Ryan has to say.

Ryan:  My name is Ryan Mallough. I am the director of provincial affairs for Ontario with the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. So, we are the largest per capita small business association in the country or sorry, in the world. We represent 110,000 small business owners across the country. Forty-two thousand here in Ontario. And we run on three main pillars, the one we're best known for in our primary one is advocacy, we lobby at all three levels of government, federal, provincial and municipal on business owners’ behalf on any issues they're facing. So, everything from tax concerns with the CRA to employment standards laws, to sectoral laws, like things around cannabis with the construction sector, all the way down to issues with the municipal governing processes. We also, because of our size, run a relatively extensive savings program. We're able to leverage the power of 110,000 members and get some pretty good deals for our members when it comes to small business banking, credit card processing fees, and another big one, payroll as well. And we passed one hundred percent of those savings on to members because we are not for profit. And then our last one, which actually leads into the cannabis conversation that we'll be having today, is we have a business resources unit, which is a hotline that our members can call at any time with any small business issue under the sun. So, if they're having say, a difficult termination process with an employee, if they're trying to figure out how to navigate the CRA during tax season or perhaps interpret an employment standard exemption, they can call into our business resources team, and we help walk them through it.  Up to the point where we will call these agencies on their behalf to get the answers that they're looking for.

Kirk:  Oh, that's marvelous. Can you define what small businesses then? What is a big business?

Ryan:  Yeah. So we hear different definitions across the board. For the sake of our membership, the biggest thing is that they are independently Canadian owned. Not foreign owned and not traded on the stock market. And a small business is traditionally under 100 employees. You often hear the term SME, small and medium sized enterprise. That's anything under 499 employees. The bulk of our membership are actually in sort of the 12-employee range. But we, represent that small and medium sized segment. When you're talking about a big business, aside from often being foreign owned and publicly traded, you're also looking at 500 employees plus.

Kirk:  OK, all right. And you're across the whole district, agriculture, construction, your health, education, hospitality, manufacturing. Now, these are all privately owned. So, what's an example of a privately-owned health or education business?

Ryan:  Yeah. So, you have things like, for example, family doctors’ practices. Where doctors are not working from the hospital, but they're working at a family practice. So that sort of thing would be considered privately done. We also have a couple of, for example, drug testing facilities that are privately run. Pharmacists offices too or independent pharmacies would be another example.

Kirk:  OK, wonderful. So, let's move into the cannabis aspect of this. I received your press release. "Employers still facing cannabis related challenges a year after legalization." That was the press release. Can you expand on what some of the challenges that business owners are facing with cannabis legalization?

Ryan:  Absolutely. So, I mentioned earlier our business resources department. These are guys that take the calls across the country. Right now, they're taking about 40,000 calls a year from coast to coast. And in the lead up to legalization day, a little over a year ago now, we received a flood of calls about business owners going, what does legalization mean for me in my day-to-day.  We heard a lot of focus. We participated in consultations with governments around what retail model should look like and sort of how the legalization rollout should go. But we found where they really missed the mark was on educating the non-cannabis sector businesses about what their responsibilities in the workplace are. So a year later, we decided to ask our members a few questions. One, have they had a cannabis related incident? And the return came out at about 10%, saying, yes, they had. And two, did they feel that they had been well-educated or that they were in a better place now with the government when it comes to the level of education than they were a year ago and the answer was generally no. Business owners are still feeling that the government has not done a good enough job reaching out and informing them what their responsibilities are now that cannabis is legal.

Kirk:  OK, fair enough. I'm looking at the results. I'm on your Web page. I'm looking at the results. The question is; have you had any cannabis related incidences in your workplace since legalization October 17th, 2018? The response basically was eight businesses said Yes, 87 said No, and five said unsure, unknown. Also, if I was to read that differently actually, cannabis has been a non-player in the last year.

Ryan:  So, I think that's a fair assessment. As far as the level of concern that we saw going into legalization certainly didn't play out post legalization as being a rampant issue. Now, I think there are some qualifying factors there. I think, for example, in our biggest province here in Ontario, the legalization rollout has not been as, let's say, as smooth as it could have been or it was promised to be at the time when the plan was released. So I think that after a year of legalization, the cannabis market is perhaps not as open, as it is going to be in the coming years.  As the supply issues sort themselves out and there are more access points for people to get it from. That being said too, I think generally speaking, I mean, the cannabis using population to legal cannabis using population are adults and do understand their own responsibilities and where it is and isn't appropriate to smoke. That being said, I mean, 8% of business owners, when you look at our membership, 8% of 110,000 is still a large number of individual businesses.

Kirk:  Mm hmm. No, I'm not disagreeing with you on that.  In this project, we're looking at, the whole stigma of cannabis, and a year ago, two years ago, everyone was so afraid with cannabis legalization.  What we're finding now, after a year of legalization, what are the issues.  Compared to others, I mean, this question really doesn't talk about alcohol related incidences in business. Do you take that kind of survey from your membership?

Ryan:  So, we didn't ask specifically around alcohol, but it is a fair point. And that was when we were asking the governments in the lead up to legalization education efforts. That tended to be the response we got back. Well, it's the same as alcohol in practice. You can't, you know, keep a bottle of whiskey in your desk and down it, you know, in the middle of the workday. I don't know if you work perhaps you can, but generally speaking, you can't do that.  In the same way, you cannot just simply sit in your cubicle and light up and smoke. But I think the taboo around cannabis generated a lot of concern. This is something that is so high profile and viewed as being so brand new that a lot of people didn't understand that this is still a controlled substance and it's going to be treated like a controlled substance, albeit a legal one. Alcohol being the ideal comparator there. I think too, part of the issue, especially in Ontario, is when the Ford government here did rule out their legalization plan, which moved from the public retail model that the Wynn government had proposed, into a private retail model. One of the other things they did was they tied where you can consume cannabis to Smoke Free Ontario Act. And while that help solve some of the, you know, if you're a tourist or if you're coming from somewhere else and are looking to try this, you know, where can you do it issues, that were there under the Wynn government's plan. I think it also created a lot of concern and confusion around, you know, if I have employees going on a smoke break. Well, you just said you can smoke cannabis anywhere where you can smoke a cigarette. So, what's to stop them from going out and smoking cannabis on their smoke break? And I think especially in Ontario, that generated a lot of confusion and fear over what was going to happen.

Kirk:  I guess in some ways we just weren't giving our employees credit that they knew that recreational cannabis should be treated like alcohol.

Ryan:  I think I think that's a fair assessment. But I think to that from the from the business owners point of view, there was I mean, we hit the 17th last year and there was sort of this belief that there would be, you know, a purple haze over Toronto and Ottawa and sort of this whole you know, once it's legal, it's just it's going to be everywhere and there's going to be a very much a reefer madness style mentality. And that was present in the media. It was it was drummed up that this whole we are the first country that has gone this far, as far as open and legal retail is that it's going to be it's going to create new problems, that there's going to be, you know, car accidents all over the place because it's going to be an issue. I mean, quite frankly, the people who were consuming cannabis under the illicit market, it wasn't a problem then, because on some level, I mean, they tend to know better. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but they tend to know better, which is why you didn't suddenly see a massive spike in traffic tickets being issued despite there being new rules. Which is why in our own study, we don't see a huge number when it comes to workplace incidents. We do see a number that is enough that we think it merits some attention being paid and at least some education efforts being ramped up.

Kirk:  I am I can see from your Web page you guys are walking a fine line. At one point. You're an advocate for businesses, so you're an advocate for businesses that want to get into the cannabis space. And I noticed at one point you sent out a press release about how you're disappointed with the government's going to allow cannabis suppliers to actually start selling paraphernalia and therefore cutting into business of paraphernalia sales people. So, I see how you walk in on both sides of it now as employers, because you're obviously advocating, helping businesses be employers. So what are some of the things that you're doing for businesses to help them work with employees?

Ryan:  So, you think that we encouraged in the lead up to legalization and we received the number of phone calls inquiring about and the thing that we still actively promote, especially now after we take year one and we're starting to see edibles and topicals and oils come online, is we're very much encouraging workplaces to adopt the drug and alcohol policy. We think that that's the first step as far as communicating what the workplace expectations are to your employees, what the employee responsibilities are, what the employer's responsibilities are, if there is an incident, how that's going to shake out as far as who's responsible for what, what's going to happen if that comes up and to remind the employees that both they and employers are responsible to ensure the workplace is safe. So, if, for example, you know, you're working beside someone that you suspect, you know, has just gone off on their smoke break, for example, and consume some cannabis, and now they're get to get behind the wheel of a forklift.  As an employee, if you're aware of that, you do have a responsibility to inform your manager. At the same time, if you're a manager, you also have the responsibility to be watching your floor. And if you believe someone's impaired to ensure that they are not doing anything, that is going to jeopardize the safety of anyone in the workplace.

Kirk:  Mm hmm. Cannabis is very unique. This is one of the things that we explored in one of our earlier episodes with an H.R. specialist. Cannabis is unique in the sense that, OK, we have the recreational side of it. We also have the medicinal side of it. So how do you counsel your business members to deal with the medicinal side of cannabis versus the recreational side of it?

Ryan:  Yeah, so this is where we're also starting to see questions crop up.  I expect as we go deeper into legalization, we'll see it come up more and more. Again, is that taboo is lifted and we see cannabis prescribed more often then for different things as research develops as well. The short answer is, is that if it is prescribed, you have to treat it like every other prescription drug. You can't you know, despite the stigma around recreational cannabis, that stigma can't be there around recreational (medicinal) cannabis. That is the same as someone who has broken their leg and is taking any other sort of prescription painkiller. That being said, that also means that under those circumstances, that workplace consumption can happen and you can't simply terminate an employee for taking their medicine that gets into significant human rights issues. So, what we're actively encouraging our members to do when it comes to medicinal cannabis is, you do need to have a conversation about your employee, first and foremost to ensure that there is a prescription. That is one of the concerns that we heard. Now, granted, I haven't heard any examples of it come up since, but the notion of self-medicating and where that plays in as far as your rights and responsibilities as an employer, it does come down to there does have to be a valid prescription. But if there is a valid prescription, you then have human right responsibilities to accommodate that employee. So, again, if they're doing something like driving a forklift or working on a construction site, something safety sensitive, you do have to pull them off that job. You can't allow them to be high or I should say impaired in any way.  In any case, whether it be from cannabis or any other prescription drugs and doing something like operating heavy machinery. Because, again, when you get into a safety issue. However, you also can't just let them go. You're actually obligated to try to find them another position for the duration of their time on the medicine. So, the simplest case of that is you move them to a desk job. That's the easiest example of that. It can become a lot more difficult. It also only extends up to the point of undue hardship. So, for example, you know, you are a company that only does truck driving.  There is no administrative overhead. There is no desk job available. You have to create something entirely new that would be considered undue hardship and then you can start getting into the discussion. Well, now, what do we do with the employees. Is laying off an option. Is termination option, and those both all come with their own regulatory burdens. But at that point, you can start having that conversation.

Kirk:  I wonder and I don't know the answer to this and just maybe intuitively I know the answer this, but cannabis has been legal medicinally since 2002. I think 2001, 2002.  Has just has it just been with the recreational legalization, that employers and small businesses are popping their head out the sand about prescription drugs? Because I'm wondering how many how many aging baby boomers are on those forklifts popping Tylenol 3s of every six hours. I'm wondering, was the recreational cannabis that got us to go, hey, we should be aware of these medicinal uses of cannabis and other drugs.

Ryan:  So I think there was always the push out there to be aware of prescription drugs generally.  I agree that, you know, the Tylenol 3s, I've you know, I've had my wisdom teeth pulled. I've been on they do make me a bit loopy. I think most people are looking at things like Percocet or Demerol or, you know, an opioid or something like that has that more obvious, bigger degree and probably don't pay enough attention to the smaller ones. But I think what happened with cannabis legalization on the recreational side is, again, that the taboo that surrounds it. It has been around since the early 2000s medicinally that has been allowed. We have had members who have dealt with that in their workplace and had a couple of questions. But overall, no issues about, you know, they understood that as a prescription drug, they were obligated to deal with it. I think what the issue we're going to see moving further is right now, cannabis primarily tends to be prescribed for pain management, that that's sort of I think that's the number one out there. I you know, I'm a millennial. I come from a generation that is very high anxiety. I have heard wonderful things coming out of research reports in the States about using cannabis and CBD in particular as anxiety treatment. I do think we will see cannabis become more prevalent on the prescription side. And I think that will that'll raise some flags. I think I mean, as you said, some heads will pop out of the sand a little bit just to sort of, you know, oh, this is new. It's different. I think, honestly, when cannabis in pill form becomes more prevalent, I know there are some products that are already out there, that that might die down a little bit. But I think it's the honestly, I think it's the taboo and it may seem kind of silly, but it's the smell. It's something you notice. You don't notice when an employee is, you know, taking a painkiller, you know, at lunch as per their prescription as much as you would somebody who is actively out there smoking.  I think there is a mindset that sort of triggers when that smell comes in that sort of has people going like, oh, you can't do that. Actually, an example from my own experience, I do a Christmas party with friends every year and every year everybody brings sort of those Secret Santa gifts. And this most recent year after legalization, someone opened up a bag and there was a branded canister or a box rather, of cannabis. And my first reaction was sort of, whoa, who brought the drugs to the party? Because that's exactly how cool I am. But, you know, looking around at what everybody else brought, bottles of beer, bottles of wine, that sort of thing, it's no different. And I think that that taboo will die down and sort of the gasp when you first notice it isn't going to be there. But we're still pretty early in the process and it is very much there right now.

Kirk:  Thank you for that. Actually, that was a really good description. I was sitting here actually visualizing it. I agree with you. I think it's the smell when you are someplace and someone walks in from outside and they smell like cannabis, you go, whoa, you're smoking cannabis. It's sort of that I think is still the stigma that we all go, oh, you're doing drugs, but you're not. You're having a beer. You're having you're having a toke. The question is, where do you do it, you know, and how do you do it? And that's, I guess, what you're saying to your businesses, your partners, your members, is be aware it's out there and have a policy prepared for it.

Ryan:  Yes And...

Kirk:  Go ahead.

Ryan:  And I just want to, I think the other thing with members, too, like when we use the alcohol comparison, which again, I think it is a good comparison, but I think there's a bit of a difference in that all alcohol, it's all ethanol. Right? Like all alcohol is the same. And we know from society kind of drilling at home and every cop drama under the sun. But we know what the legal limit is and we tend to know what drunk looks like. We, most people I think, have experienced it, but at least certainly seen it somewhere, be it at home when you're growing up with parents and friends or at school or in a bar on the dating scene or whatever it is, I think people understand what that looks like. I think part of the concern with business owners is they don't necessarily know what high looks like and they don't necessarily know what impairment looks like. I think that's been a real struggle with, you know, how am I supposed to deal with this if I don't smell it and I don't actively catch them in the act. How do you identify someone as high? I mean, traditionally, you can say, well, you've got to sort of the cartoon symptoms, right? The red eyes, the lack of attention span, you know, maybe hunger, perhaps you've got someone sort of staring at their hands or they're kind of out of it. But I can tell you, too, I was in Europe over the summer. I came back on a Wednesday. I actively went into work on the Thursday and I had red eyes. I had very poor confusion. I was kind of dazed and confused. It was jetlag. So, I think that also and it may come some time and it may come as use becomes more prevalent, but identifying impairment in the workplace, because ultimately that is what the employer is responsible for. It's not the act of consumption that is the issue. It's being impaired part that creates the problem.

Kirk:  And then you have to define what that impairment is compared to the job they're doing in relation to the job they're doing.  And that goes back to workplace health and safety. Every job. I mean, small businesses don't have the time to do this, to build themselves an H.R. plan, but every job should be broken down by its competencies.  I'm sure, you're encouraging your members to do that. But a small business of five people, that's tough work when you want to balance your books.

Ryan:  That's what we're asking governments to step up. Right. It's. Our members don't have the H.R. departments that the big guys have that have the time to dedicate to this, that I honestly actively doing it themselves most of the time. And you, unless you are an H.R. consultancy, you will be hard pressed to find me someone who is a business owner who said, you know, I got into this to do H.R. Work. They got into it. They got into it to do whatever it is they do.

Kirk:  Yeah. They want to sell their product and make something manufactured. Something.

Ryan:  Exactly.

Kirk:  Yeah, I got so many questions for you. I used to spend time in the H.R. department, so from the perspective of an H.R. manager, cannabis is such a difficult thing to judge. You're asking your membership to have policies. Now, of the policies, 65% of them seem to have a policy right now. Now, that policy would be workplace drugs and alcohol policy. But is it not really more of an impairment policy? Like you said, I just returned from a 13-hour jet flight myself. It's taken me 3 or 4 days to get back to my sleep pattern. So, would it not be better to have a policy on impairment?

Ryan:  I think ultimately that is that is what we're getting at. I mean, legally, impairment is actionable. You can start to move if you have someone impaired on the workplace. You can take them off the job, you can send them home, you can call them in the next day and have a conversation, which is what we tend to recommend. But I think what we're aiming for at the workplace policy is to: A. Spell it out, spell out what everybody's responsibilities are, and not just in the actual workplace itself, but whenever you are representing your company, like, for example, I you know, as part of my job, I tend to travel around Ontario and give speeches to various business groups and associations. I'm not at the workplace sometimes it is not between 9:00 to 5:00, but I'm actively representing my company and I'm still under that policy when I'm doing that.  Similar with things like having a holiday Christmas party is you know, a lot of companies offer booze at their holiday Christmas parties and they do have legal responsibilities around that when it comes to their employees, you know, becoming impaired from that. Well, now you have a holiday Christmas party. And again, in the same way that someone steps out for a cigarette break and steps outside the restaurant. Same thing, right? You absolutely can legally, there's nothing to stop you from smoking a joint in the same fashion as long as you're not doing it inside the restaurant. But then are you are you impaired? Are you, you know, creating an issue there? And that's where I think having the policy starts that conversation. We acknowledge, too, that having a workplace drug and alcohol policy is not bulletproof, but it does put you in a better position than not having them. Then having an incident and of scrambling to say, well, what is it we're supposed to be? What can we do? What did the employee know or not know? Based on and.

Kirk:  And I see from your Webpage, I was able to get into it, I'm not a member, but you have a template that members can access and they can build using a template for the policy.

Ryan:, actually, I believe it's available to any anybody who comes across the website.  To full out that template, I don't think it's locked or anything.

Kirk:  So, going back, just one more thing, a couple more things on the survey. When you define, when you ask the question have you had any cannabis related incidences, can you define what a cannabis related incident was in the 8% that said Yes. Do you have specifics of what those incidents were?

Ryan:  So generally speaking, the ones we did ask them to follow up with an explanation as to what the incident was, generally speaking, among those that identified, yes, it was an employee came back, went on break and came back high. Not in every case, but in most cases, the way that the business owner identified that was smell.

Kirk:  Smell. Yeah, yeah.

Ryan:  They came back reeking of the cannabis, which is where I come to on that is that is sort of the trigger that I think is still there for a lot of people in and outside of the workplace.

Kirk:  I think that's a good trigger. 

Ryan:  And then the other one that came up as well, the two other ones, I should say, that came up as well, were people smoking outside the door of the workplace, not necessarily employees, but someone sort of hanging out by the door, by a restaurant patio, and smoking and that creating issues. Then having not employees, but customers come into businesses high and what are their responsibilities when that happens?

Kirk:  Interesting. Very interesting conversation. Thank you very much. Is there anything that you would like to say? That is a question I didn't ask you that you want to get the point out?

Ryan:  I don't think so. I think I think we covered it all. The one thing that I might add is that: after what are my responsibilities, I'd say the most prevalent question that we tend to get is, can I drug test? That seems to a remarkably prevalent one, and that's where the conversation we have around what is impairment comes in.

Kirk:  The whole drug testing thing is controversial.

Ryan:  Yes, well, well, and it's not just can you do it? The answer is No. Generally speaking, unless you've had a near miss or an actual accident, you can't randomly administer a drug test. And then it gets more complicated because, the legal limit of alcohol is well understood and we know when you when you blow a certain number on a breathalyzer, you are impaired.  With cannabis, it's a little more difficult to assess because the blood test doesn't necessarily tell you impairment. It tells you, in the system.

Kirk:  Exactly.

Ryan:  And depending on how you ingested it, how much you ingested the you know, your height, your body weight, your frequency, its use, you could have used something two weeks ago, but you're still triggering on the test. And then so the employer has gone through the cost and the rigmarole of getting the test done. Then the result doesn't necessarily tell them anything.

Kirk:  Right, exactly.

Ryan:  That is also the big one is if I say you're impaired and you say no, now we're at this sort of standstill, what do we do?

Trevor:  Kirk smell. I love where you guys went with smell. So, something that happened like last week. So, we have a methadone Suboxone program for people who are trying to get off of opioids. These are people I literally have to talk to every day. They come in and they dose every day. So, these are people who by definition, have problems with addictions to substances. I don't see their lab tests, their urine tests, but probably a lot of them come in with other substances in their system, because they are working through some addiction issues, I never think about that. But a guy came in last week, reeking of pot, first thought on my mind, oh, he's on drugs. Well of course he is, that is the whole point of him being here.

Kirk:  He's a drug addict, pardon me, he's a man with difficulties with substances.

Trevor:  ...he has substance use issues. That's the whole point. But it was just after you and Ryan's conversation I am going, smell such a trigger isn't it.

Kirk:  Yeah, yeah. It's a huge trigger.  When he was explaining that to me, I also flashed back.  How many times have you been some place where you go, oh, the guy's been smoking pot because he because he's like Pigpen coming in.

Trevor:  With a cloud.

Kirk:  With a cloud around him. And it is a trigger. It is a trigger and it happens everywhere. Just in my travels, you know, in Winnipeg, I can smell cloud as you're walking down the road. I was in Toronto at the airport and briefly step outside. I was lost at the airport. I could smell someone smoking cannabis, you know, in the smoking area. I am in Ethiopia and I go to a Halie Selassie Celebration, a Vibration Station Coronation Celebration. This was a Rastafarian party. And again, I'm in Ethiopia and I'm like, oh, there's cannabis at the Rastafarian party. Right.

Trevor:  Shocking. But again, the first thing is the smell.

Kirk:  It's the smell. So, I can imagine businesses. I mean, you know, again, as a young man in the west coast of Victoria and Vancouver Island was the smell, you could always smell the smell. Right. And it's a trigger. And as soon as you said that. What if your Employee smells.  Come on, guys, if you're working and you're going outside for a spliff or a smoke, don't think people don't know.  The smells the trigger.

Trevor:  And I thought it was really good. I thought you pressed him nicely, but he responded with what I've actually heard. I've had conversations with people. That was the concern pre-October 17th. And I don't think it's come up since. But I remember that conversation. What do I do? You know, right now, my employees can go out to the smoking area, have a smoke. What happens if they have a joint instead? You know, the sky's going to fall. So that was a real honest concern.

Kirk:  But it's a year later.

Trevor:  But on another part, I think their survey showed a year later, 8%. I'm not saying that's not nothing, but, you know, there's got to be bigger issues out there than 8%.

Kirk:  Well, that's what I'm thinking. I mean, they've got a survey also follows a quarter of the businesses list their provincial governments as the primary source of information related to cannabis in the workplace. So, they're disappointed that government hasn't stepped up. Thirty two percent listed the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses as the primary source. So, these guys have stepped in where they think the government should do. Fifty nine percent of those who had a primary source of information felt better equipped to deal with cannabis. So employers want the education and thirty four percent of the businesses do not have drug policies.

Trevor:  So and like he said, if you got into if you're running a five truck trucking business, you didn't get into that to do H.R.. No, you know, you have to, but you know, it's not real high on your priority list. So I can see why the small businesses are upset with the government and looking to people like CFIB to help fill that education gap.

Kirk:  Yeah, yeah. Government should step up. I mean, they should at least have I mean, they should at least, have an understanding of competency-based jobs. But you know what? I think workplace health and safety has that. When I was working for the H.R. department, the Regional Health Authority, we're working with workplace health and safety issues and there are competency-based job descriptions out there. I think private business should be able to access them. I don't know.

Trevor:  I don't either know this story will continue.

Kirk:  It will continue. So we should talk about Strainprint.

Trevor:  Yes, Strainprint, they're really good. They are a diabetic health blog for your medicine -- for your cannabis.

Kirk:  Yes, sir.

Trevor:  And I've been looking lately. They've been releasing some interesting stuff. You just go to to see the stuff. But they've been releasing some of the information they've gathered about what strains help what people, publicly.  I've been looking more into their clinic software. So if you are a doctor's office, you can use Strainprint clinic software to track how your patients are using their cannabis. And it's like, yeah.

Kirk: The are sponsoring Reefer Medness - The podcast. We recommend people go out there. We're introducing ourselves at the end of the game here.

Trevor:  Kirk. Who are you?

Kirk:  I'm Kirk, the nurse, and you are.

Trevor:  Trevor Shewfelt and the pharmacist.

Kirk:  And this is Reefer Medness - The Podcast. Thank you for tuning in. So I enjoyed that conversation. We're getting back into things. I'm back from Ethiopia. I've got a few other interviews in the works. I'm trying to work on. I go north next week, so I'm going to be gone for two weeks. So, you've got you've got a couple of coming.

Trevor:  Yeah, we will fit in a couple more interviews before we go, but yeah, we'll don't worry people. We've got some interesting things coming.

Kirk:  All right. So, Renee, cue the music.

Rene:  OK, well, staying true to the idea that we are trying to come up with music that is Dauphin centric. This is truly Dauphin centric. It's the Dauphin community jazz band led by Bain Balkin. And this is a live recording and I really don't know what year or even what the venue is, but it's an interesting listen of a community jazz band right here in Dauphin performing live. And it's a bit of a snapshot into the history of music around here in Dauphin. So it's not the greatest quality of recording, but it's an interesting listen.

Trevor:  Don't forget to come back, everybody. We're Reefer Medness - The Podcast.

Kirk:  Tell a friend.