Episode Transcript

Trevor: Kirk. We're back.  Off air, you were teasing me about the tie. Rightfully so. It's a Sunday morning. I literally still have a cup of coffee in my hand. Why the tie? Well, you know, one of our sort of premises when we started this podcast, as I was, you know, the uptight pharmacist with a tie, you were the hippie want to be nurse without. And I know, I figure as we're getting back into fall, I'm wearing a tie more often to work. So, you know, maybe the tie on the podcast that nobody can see. People can hear the tie. 

Kirk: Well, I am I'm wearing grandpa's sweater because I woke up this morning and my furnace boiler isn't working. So the house is like 61 degrees Fahrenheit. So a little cool. 

Trevor: But your House should know not to do that to a star. 

Kirk: A star?

Trevor: This is what I hear.  I wasn't able to make it because I was, you know, drilling holes in my floor and other I am a terrible home improvement person. But anyway, there is a rumor that you were on a stage with other actors doing some cowboy related stuff. What were you doing last night, Kirk?

Kirk: Well, as regular listeners of this podcast understand that I'm very involved with the local arts center in town. The Watson Art Centre, and the administrator is a producer and he produces radio plays. So watsonartcentre.com you'll go to the Watson Art Centre web page and under program, something called the Second City Players. And what we've done is that I've got myself involved with them. There are 18, 18, 19 Gunsmoke radio play on the on the Second Story Players website within the Watson Art Centre. And I was last night we did a live recording of Gunsmoke at the Art Center. And it was a laugh. I played Hank Springer and I was a cowboy that was misunderstood. And so, yeah, we have we had Gunsmoke last night. It was we had we had an audience and we were sitting in a sort of like in front, not on the stage, but below the stage. And we were reading a script and we were doing a radio play yesterday. So if, if listeners want to hear my voice, I got into play. I think I'm, I think I'm on episode 17 and I'll be on episode 19. That comes up soon. So yeah, I've played a couple of characters. So yesterday was yeah, it was fun. It was a lot of fun. 

Trevor: So I don't know if that segue nicely at all to Tarris but we had Tarris Baptist and I mis-pronounced his name a few times, so I'll make sure other people don't. Tarris It's like the astrological symbol, Tarris Baptist. And he reached out to us on LinkedIn, which is very cool. Reach out to us any way you want, that's great. It's always nice to meet people. And he was, he was talking about his book and his involvement with cannabis. And, you know, the things that stuck out for me when we're first are chatting on LinkedIn is, you know, elite football player and cannabis. So I really thought I was going to get an interview about, you know, "cannabis and concussions," "cannabis and performance," you know, the the hidden or not so hidden use of cannabis in the NFL because we're hearing a lot of those stories come out, but that is not where it went. And I got the book and I will mention a few more times we'll put in the show notes. The book is called Don't Let It Smoke. It wasn't what I expected at all. In a really good way. And it was sort of his problems in the past with cannabis. Then, you know, he sort of went back to cannabis when he was a little older when he didn't quite make the NFL, but then he really wanted to kind of go learn about it and then went off to find a few gurus, which we'll talk about in a bit to learn more about cannabis and what I was saying off air. I think, it's well balanced. You know something that he, was a problem, isn't the problem, still something that the really involved, interests him, but yeah cannabis and balance. You were doing some, you haven't read the book yet, so I will answer that part so if you want. But you were poking around over the intermowebs about Tarris. What sort of things were you finding out? 

Kirk: Well, I listened to your interview with him, and I came away saying to myself, okay, so who is this guy? And, you know, how did you find him? So I Googled him and I found him. He's doing the book tour. So I think we've caught him during the book tour. And this is the first time that we've, I think, knowingly interviewed a guy that has a book out. I mean, we've interviewed scientists, doctors, nurses, pharmacists, addiction specialist, economists. We've interviewed a lot of people. Some of them are published. Most of them have published papers. But I'm not sure how many of them have actually published a book. So I went and Googled and looked at his book and, and, and the full title is "Don't Let It Smoke You. Creating a Non Toxic Relationship with Cannabis." So yeah, I was thinking why don't we listen to the interview that you had with him and then when we come out of it, I can tell you some things I've learned by Googling his story. 

Trevor: Absolutely. Let's listen to Tarris. 

Trevor: Tarris Baptist. Introduce yourself and then we're going to talk about your story. 

Tarris Baptist: Absolutely. So my name is Tarris Baptist. I am 29 years old. I'm out here in Seattle right now learning about the cannabis industry, the products around it, etc.. But it went on LinkedIn, reached out to you guys. Just happy to be on the show and happy to learn a little bit more why I'm on here. 

Trevor: And we were really happy to get the note. And so among other things, you you have a book. And as I was saying, off air, I read your book and it wasn't what I expected in a really good way. So you've done lots of things and continue to do lots of things, but let's and we'll spend a chunk of the time going over your book. But let's just let's start with why did you think you want to write a book? Cannabis related. 

Tarris Baptist: Yeah. Thank you for reading the book. Thank you for fully reading the book. Right. So I want to mention that first. But to get to your question, I was going through a time where I was using. Consistently and it was helping me, but it wasn't necessarily accepted in society. So I was getting told, You shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that. But I felt a different flavour inside. I felt a different type of like positive side inside. So I just wrote all my mess into a message and that's what got into the book for sure. 

Trevor: Well, it's a very well written mess then, you write very well. I'll mention a couple of times, but the title is Don't Let It Smoke You, which great title. I recommend people read it. It's a short read it's flows nicely and I mean in the a nicest possible way it's kind of set up a little like a textbook, you know, it's got, you know, points to learn from each chapter kind of at the end. So it's, you know, it's, it's easy to take away the ideas. I recommend people go to Amazon and get it. But so again, you do lots of things now, but at one point in your life, your main focus was, was football. And we'll go back to when you're younger. But sort of the part that grabbed my attention, I think everybody else's. You were in a rookie camp in the NFL thinking that that was going to be the way things were going in your life and what happened? 

Tarris Baptist: Yeah, it kind of took a turn for me. I was in rookie camp. I'm like a lot of young men as well, and I was trying my best to get on the team and to stay on the team on the active roster. But I also was using cannabis all the time to the point where I wasn't necessarily 100% focused on getting on that team. So as you read in the book, that's where a little bit of the disconnect came in and that's what I want to help others start moving forward. It might not be getting on a football roster, but it may be getting in your favorite classes or in this certain organization, etc. So hopefully that can resonate with a lot of people like it did with yourself. 

Trevor: Yeah. So let's, we can go off topics. We do that on here all the time, but let's start sort of at the beginning of the book, you start circa grade seven, so and you were playing basketball and kind of what, how you know with trying, trying to impress them like all of us trying to impress them boys that were a little, little older and better than you. And so what happened there? 

Tarris Baptist: Yeah. So, you know, looking back to when I was younger, you know, when you mentioned a title Don't Smoke You, I tried to make the book as timeless as possible. I should have said Don't Let It Use You. 

Trevor: Smell smoke with cool is cooler. 

Tarris Baptist: I guess you can say that. But back then, it was just smoking, right? Goes back too the chapter. It was just smoking. Nowadays you have CBD bombs and all type of vapes and stuff, but so that's where we started and it was just really just me trying to learn sports, wanting to be around the guys. I was never really a follower. It wasn't peer pressure at all, me just wanting to be around the guys and like, Hey, that's what they did. So let me just try it and see. And I actually liked it. So yeah. 

Trevor: No. And then so we follow along a little bit and jump in here. It's, it's your story. But the next one that sort of really jumped out at me is you're someone from the Southern US, not really used to the cold and you end up in Terre Haute at University. And you had a quote in there about, you know, I didn't really know about the proper winter attire. Where did that story go to? 

Tarris Baptist: Yeah, Terre Haute, Indiana. Shout out to Indiana State too. That's my very first college, the home of Larry Bird. Right. Everyone knows that. So, you know, going up to Indiana, just being from the South was completely different. I wasn't used to those winters, etc. Neither was I used to the whole college cannabis culture. You can say, it was like cannabis on steroids, right? You can smoke it this way. You can use it this way. Everybody does it. So at that time, you know, me navigating through college, also navigating through my relationship with cannabis led me to some times that I had to do some desperate things. I felt like at that time and one of those things I talk about in the book was walking a length of time to go to get some weed you can say. And it was just really cold. I wasn't prepared for it, but I wanted the weed so bad I had to do it.  And it was smoking me for sure. 

Trevor: Yeah. And, you mentioned it several times because you talked to lots of people and sort of we'll call it the addictions end of things. You know, that's kind of the definition of, for lack of a better word, an addiction or a problem is, when you were doing things to get what you want that are not beneficial to you, like going for a long walk in the cold. 

Tarris Baptist: Right Absolutely. 

Trevor: So and again, jump in at any point. So next we get back to the rookie camp. So, you know. It didn't quite go the way you would have wanted or, you know, if this was a Disney story, the way it would have turned out. So, you know, your whole life has been prepared to be an NFL player and now you're not. You know, I think everybody, whether, you know, very, very few of us will be anywhere near a professional level athlete. But all of us have tried to get that job, that relationship, that whatever, and it didn't turn out. And now we felt, get a "now what moment" you had the now-what-moment and what happened after that? 

Tarris Baptist: Yes, I had the now what moment right after I got released.  Actually I even had "now what" in "what now moment." Meaning, I accidentally got testicular cancer. At the same time I got released. I was trying to get back in and play and I end up having testicular cancer. So I really was at a point where I didn't know what to do, but I didn't know that I was still smoking. So at that time, I knew I kind of had to sit down and figure out what I wanted to do personally and also my relationship with the plant. Right. I think the plant, I love the plant. I'm all for it.  Pro cannabis. I'm all for cannabis advocacy. But I think your relationship with it is a different aspect. And that's what I had to sit down and reflect and really kind of figure out how I was going to act that moving forward and what I wanted to do as myself. Absolutely. 

Trevor: Okay. So. 

Tarris Baptist: I wanted to not use my body anymore. Use my brain. So I moved out to Seattle and I and, you know, universe powers, I was able to do both and moved out here to learn a little bit more about the tech industry. And I was able to learn about cannabis, where cannabis is legal. So I got both of them and it kind of worked out for me. 

Trevor: Excellent. And now it's part of your research for this book. And this is if I'm getting my timeline right, you know, this is sort of kind of sort of started post athletics and getting into the rest of your life. You had these ideas, but you also said, hey, I want to I want to interview some people who know more than me. And then you pick three in particular. And we relate to that because we do that every day. We don't know anything. And then we call someone and say, Hey, can you tell us something? Tell us about the three people you reached out to and what sort of things you learned from them. 

Tarris Baptist: Absolutely. So this was major. This was a part of my research.  This was during my college time, I felt like I was so, I felt like I was really like pioneering being like thought leadership type. So I went out to Denver to go speak to Kevin DeMata and his team. They told me all about the pros, about cannabis, how it has helped Colorado, how it's helped with economic development, how it was helped all around. And then I went out to Sacramento to kind of learn about the cons from Nancy Reagan. I mean, not Nancy Reagan, but her campaign's team. Yeah, Carla Lowe. You know, I felt like Nancy Reagan was there because it was so many people from the team and they were just throwing out so many facts. It was amazing. But so I went to Sacramento to learn about the cons. And then from there I finished in Emory University to learn about the brain and what happens with the brain with Michael Kuhar. And those were my three choices that I chose. And I accidentally went out to Seattle and learned a little bit more from Naturopathic Doctors, etc. So a lot of things fell in my lap. It was great research, but I learned that the plan is kind of growing with this hand in hand, so nobody's really an expert in it. We're all just kind of learning as we grow, for sure. 

Trevor: So as someone who has kind of a side at this point, you've kind of decided, I think I have a problem. It's I'm not doing, I'm not doing or it's not, I'm not liking how much, how I'm using compared to what I want to be doing. What sort of things did you gather from the from these experts that that helped you? 

Tarris Baptist: Yeah. So nothing's one sided, right. So even when I went to Denver, they said it may be some cons. When I went to Sacramento to learn about the cons, they say it may be some pros. So nothing is one sided. So I've learned that figure out what works for you. You have to go through a little bit of experience to do that. You also have a radical open mind to do that. And you also have to do a little bit of research and educate yourself to go along with that. So those are the things that I kind of push off to some of my younger cousins, some young adults that I speak to often. And that's what helped me. And I'm still doing that to this day. Be true to Trevor to learn a little bit more about the healthy products that I can personally use, because I still use just using more of like microdosing ways now. And you know, just to mention to sports, I actually I don't know if you seen Trevor, but it's legal in sports now, not every single industry, but it's making its way there. And you will see a lot of the microdosing play along in that role. You will see a lot of the partnerships play along of that role, which will eventually trickle down to our young adults, etc. And that's kind of the approach. I kind of go around it as well. Absolutely. If that makes sense. 

Trevor: Yeah, absolutely. And I like that some of the numbers you quote, we'll call it for, I think we're supposed to call it cannabis use disorder. We sort of quote on our podcast, 9 to 11%, you're recording about 9%. So it's nice to hear we're sort of in the ballpark, which is it's not a lot. You know, if you compare that to, you know, alcohol and tobacco.  It's not a lot at all. But, you know, the more and more people using cannabis, you know, that nine ish percent, there's going to be people who have a problem with it. So the rest of your book is kind of aimed at the if you're using more than you want or if it's kind of getting in the way of your life, what to do about it. So I know we can't summarize the whole book here, but what are some takeaways you want people to have from what you've learned? 

Tarris Bapist: Yeah. So yeah, that 9% was like that was like in 2017. I'm sure it's a little higher now. Should be that 11. So that's a sweet spot. But I would say, you know, depending on if you were using. If you know, are you an older men or woman just jumping into cannabis or are you a younger adult trying to get in? So it's a different terminology, different conversation depending on your kind of personnel there. But I would say, if you feel like you're dependent on it right now. And you don't want to cut off cold turkey? I would say, start to track why you use. Is it because you're with your friends? Is it because you're by yourself? You just want to get creative? Or is it because you know you're just lonely? Right. So track why you use. And then also kind of acknowledge there are reasons and that will help you start to move forward. Absolutely. And so those are the basics that I would throw out there on a normal scale. Like I say, it depends on who you are and kind of where you're at. But those are the basic points that I think you can start at for sure. 

Trevor: And some of the points you brought out that I really like. So taking off my cannabis hat and putting back on my pharmacist, one, one of the things I do is I talk to people who want to quit smoking, which, you know, I don't think anyone can argue there's a plus side to smoking. So, you know, if you're smoking tobacco right now, we'd like you to stop because it's healthier for you. So we talk about and it's nice you mentioned the same things that you don't have to quit 100% tomorrow. You know, if you are a three pack a day smoker today, you know, God bless you if, you know, tomorrow you can be a zero smoker. But that's going to be really hard. And you talked about that, too. You know, if you are smoking two or three times a day, you know, when I get up in the morning, when I have lunch and, you know, before I go to bed, if you go right to zero tomorrow, you're setting yourself up for failure. You sort of are advocating some, you know, smaller steps and a little bit of self-compassion. Right. 

Tarris Baptist: All about it. It's different for everyone. I like to use this terminology. In my house, when it's warm in summertime, it's normally like 68 to 72, right in my temperature. If I turn it just one or two notches, you start to feel that difference in that house. Right? It's the same thing with your used. If you just change just a little one or two notches, maybe you'll start to see a difference that you can kind of use that momentum to go off of and go from there for sure. 

Trevor: And another thing I like that you touched on, because, again, I talk about it with people quitting tobacco all the time.  Is there's going to be relapses. You know, you're going to make a plan. I like that. You said find your why.  And you've talked about that a little bit. Find your why, you know, post it on the fridge. You said you had a sticky note that you had in your dorm room for like three years. I love that. You know, so. However you can remind yourself of that why, or find your why and then you know, you make your plan and you kind of implement the plan. But something that people forget is then there's going to be a relapse. Something is going to happen. You know, your boyfriend girlfriend's going to break up with you. You know, you're in some bad things are going to happen and you're going to go you're going to revert back. So when people have that relapse, what are you what are you telling them to do? 

Tarris Baptist: Yeah. Yeah. And when people have that relapse, don't let it play such a psychological thing. Right? Just start from where you're at and keep it going. Don't try to start all the way back. For example, let's say I quit smoking seven days ago. But I relapsed on day eight. Don't try to start again. Hey, here's one. It's okay to start from day seven and keep going. Don't go all the way back. It plays different mind games in your head, just like in the weight room. Just as an athlete, if you have a set of ten, instead of going all the way up to ten, just do five up, five down. It plays different games in your head to kind of get you in a better mood and kind of think you got this thing. So that's what I would say, and hopefully that was helpful to some people. 

Trevor: Oh, it really was for old fat white guy athlete thing. So we go in a charity bike tour.  Well it's been off for COVID, but... So you get cyclists of all different abilities going on this bike tour. And what I found over the years is if I start at the front with the really fast guys, it's really discouraging to have all of them pass me, for me to end up in the middle. If I start at the back and pass a bunch, people end up exactly the same place. It's much better in my head. 

Tarris Baptist: That's a great analogy. That's a great analogy. I totally get it. 

Trevor: So now, like I said, this is a whole book.  Go buy the book. I really liked it. But I think I've hit a lot of the highlights that I liked. Anything else from, before we go into a few other things, like you mentioned athletes and stuff, which I do want to get to. Anything else from the book you wanted to highlight for our listeners before I start doing a little, little off the book? 

Tarris Baptist: Yeah, for sure. So, I mean, Don't Let It Smoke You. I still use to this day. You really have to read the book fully to understand the whole message behind it. When I say Don't Let It Smoke You not just from a consumer's side, but from a business side as well. Meaning know the legalities behind it, state to state, know the different compliance rules, state to state. All that plays a role in not letting they control you so you can do and operate the same way. If convenience store foods not that good for you, why are certain THC and hemp brands in the convenience store? So just be mindful about those certain areas. Excuse me if I say this Trevor, but it's honest. If you're a black man or a black woman, you know, the past history of cannabis. Politically, sociologically, you know, etc.. Pay attention to where these dispensaries are being put now. In these low income areas. Right, in certain areas. So be mindful of certain things that surround you and understand how to do what you want to do but not let it control you. That's completely it. 

Trevor: No, those that's a good point. Another episode we were talking with on the Canadian side of the border, a group called Cannabis Amnesty. And they're trying to get rid of people's convictions from before cannabis was legalized. That is still tracking them. That's still haunting them, making it difficult for them to get jobs and volunteer opportunities and travel, etc.. And they've got Cannabis Amnesty. 

Tarris Baptist: Amnesty. 

Trevor: I think their cannabisamnesty.ca and they but they they gave us some, unfortunately not surprising stats about, you know, pre-legalization if you were going to be arrested for just simple possession. Well, you know, if you are black or indigenous in Canada, you were, you know, 7 to 9 times more likely to be arrested than if you are a white guy. And as far as we can tell, the cannabis usage racially is pretty similar. So, you know, it just yeah, it's not. Unfortunately, not a new or surprising thing on this side of the border either. 

Tarris Baptist:  And thank you for being open to saying that, Trevor. Seriously. 

Trevor: So, again, I like the book, but we're going to let's because I'm talking to, a we will call it former athlete. Let's talk a little bit more about cannabis in athletics. You know, we've had a couple of episodes on it. Everything from, you know, they're looking about how cannabis might help with concussions in the NFL to you know, we had Sha'carri Richardson not being allowed to go to the Olympics. What's high on your radar right now for cannabis? And we'll call it athletics in general. 

Tarris Baptist: The marketing behind it is everything, right? I'm excited to see that kind of the innovation that comes around it. I think it's going to be a great thing I do. I just think we're at a spot now where we haven't fully accepted that great thing and where it can kind of go into. I'm afraid that in sports a lot of people are going to get in just because like just like you do when you're a rookie, they help you come up with a financial plan. It's going to be the same thing when it comes to cannabis. You got to come up with a relationship with cannabis that works for you. The structure behind it. And along as they have that in some type of regulation around that for these sports organizations, everything will be fine. But if it's a free for all, I think we're going to run into some issues that's going to kind of show in the near future, for sure. Absolutely. Or if it doesn't show, maybe people will come out and talk about it like you've seen nonstop coming out with Ricky Williams with LenDale White. And I'm sorry for Josh Gordon, who got kicked out the NFL for cannabis multiple times. So you'll start to see more of that stuff come out. And I think more people start talking about, especially as pot cases are rising nonstop. 

Trevor: Yeah, no, I heard a really good one with, you know, everyone's favorite Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson. He does all sorts of science things, but he has a podcast. Neil deGrasse Tyson it's called Startalk, but he does other things besides black holes. And he had Ricky Williams talking about his cannabis past and present. Like, you know, he was kicked out of the NFL a few times and then came back in and is now out and starting a cannabis company because he thinks that's a way that he wants it. So, yeah, it's I agree. I think it's going to just be more and more. What do you think? Do you think people, we will call it, athletes are going to use cannabis more as to enhance their performance, to help the recovery, for their mental health? Little of all of the above. Where do you think that's going to be going? 

Tarris Baptist: Is going to all play a mental game. Psychologically. It can enhance your recovery. The CBD bombs all that from banging your body. Yes, but it's can play more of a mental game than anything, I think. Absolutely. The psychological game more than anything, whether it can be good or whether it can be for the worse, is on the individual to kind of handle that. And that's what I mean by the those structure of plans operating like parents. And I hope that I hope that makes sense to you for sure. 

Trevor: Yeah. And because, you know, we've talked about it with steroids in the past. I'm not. Yeah. Steroids generally bad. Cannabis generally good. But just bear with me. You know, we have professional athletes using steroids. So that now filters down to the high school and the middle school and even younger kids wanting to do the same because everyone wants to be like the superstar. You know, if you know, the Heisman Trophy winner is using CBD and now, you know, the 14-year-old wants to be doing the same thing. Good, bad. Any thoughts? 

Tarris Baptist:  Don't know, we don't know. Right. I'm I think it's a good thing, but you have to tell the full story for it to be a good thing. You know, it's not Peyton Manning on a Papa John's commercial walking in and stopping right before he takes a piece. Right. Is actually him eating it, right? So tell the full story behind it. And then it'll definitely help reassure. 

Trevor: Like that whether or not whether or not Peyton Manning takes a bite of the pizza. I hadn't  thought of that. That's that's great. 

Tarris Baptist: It's true though, you know, you never see them take a bite, you know? 

Trevor: No, no, no. That's really good. So you're in Seattle, sort of one of the meccas of Tech and Cannabis. Anything else or interesting going on in your professional life in regards to cannabis out there? 

Tarris Baptist:  Yeah, I'm just continue to learn out here. I'm pushing the book as much as I can to potentially be something bigger than a book, potentially a movie once cannabis become legal all over the place.  And also a meeting, great people like yourself and chatting it up and learning more. So I'm happy. I'm here. I'm happy why I'm here and why I'm learning. And hopefully I could learn and meet more people on the podcast for sure. 

Trevor: That is fantastic. So was there anything else they missed? Anything you wish I had asked so that the listeners can hear anything along those lines? 

Tarris Baptist: Yeah, I'll give this to the listeners. It's okay to get medicated while you're getting educated. 

Trevor: So that is another good line. You're just full of good lines.

Tarris Baptist: Of course. 

Trevor: So, Kirk, what do you think about Tarris's story? 

Kirk: You know, it was interesting Trevor. I listened to your interview, got some stuff out of it. He's been on a lot of podcasts. I discovered a new podcast, and I guess we'll give him a plug called The Green Nurse, where there are two nurses, American nurses, that look like they do a YouTube podcast. And they interviewed him. And I went through a few pages, you know, Cannabis Rebel, and I went to his own web page. His own web page is Clever Chief, and he talks about his book. And like I said, I think I think I need to get this book from you and read it because there's a there's a few points in the book that I find interesting. He talks about learn the ability to smoke cannabis for enjoyment and not to make it fill the missing void in your life. Learn how to take back control of your life and your smoking habits. Learn why you smoke cannabis and what it means to you in a long term health. Learn the personal growth steps Tarris uses to conquer his own dependency and stop cannabis from ravaging your health, career and personal. Life. This book gives you the tools and motivates to never let cannabis take control. I'm wondering Trevor, and again, I haven't read it. You have? I guess the question is, is it I guess as a young man, cannabis became the most important thing in his life, which was good for him at times, but also bad for him at times. 

Trevor: Yeah. And one of the quotes I really like that I'm going to read from the book and because we're from a cold weather place, I think this really struck from him. So he said "being from Georgia, I wasn't properly equipped to walk in the harsh winter of Terre Haute, Indiana. I only had on my football leather bronze jacket. And to keep me warm, I walked two miles or more in the dead of winter just to get an ounce of weed. As I arrived my dealer opened the door and greeted me and offered me in. He looked over my shoulder, didn't see any car or anything out front. He asked, Did you walk here from campus? Yeah, I replied. He laughed hysterically as he was bagging up the weed and gave it to me. Now I know he was laughing at me for walking in the condition. But as we made our way back towards the stairway, he led me to the foyer making it to the front door. I reached for the doorknob before I could turn it. He put his hand firmly on his show on my shoulder and said, TB, just make sure you don't let that shit smoke you."  So just, you know, picture this, a kid from the Southern US, from Georgia, winter's not really a thing. Suddenly a place where winter is a thing walking more than two miles to get an ounce of weed. So that's again, it's kind of the definition of an addiction where you're doing something that's going against your interests because you need that substance. You know, this is not a, we're not judging him, but just, you know, if you find you're in that place in your life where you're doing things that are against your interests for cannabis or anything else, you know, maybe it's time to examine why you're doing that. 

Kirk: Does he use the word addiction or dependency in the when I was researching, he uses the word dependency. 

Trevor: Yes. And he sort of uses them kind of interchangeably. I'm throwing in the addiction more often because when I, as I've mentioned in the interview, when I do my tobacco cessation stuff with patients, I use the word addiction a lot there where I'm supposed to use more, I think the terminology I'm supposed to use, so it's it's my old, old brain using an older term. I'm supposed to use, you know, tobacco use disorder and cannabis use disorder because yeah, addiction carries a lot of stigma. But yeah, just if you're using a substance in this case cannabis and it's having you do things that are against your best interest, you know, maybe that's something you want to do but less of.  But I think he also did a great job and he mentions that he goes into lots, we glossed over it, but he talked about you know revisit your why. Like once you've decided you know maybe I'm using too much of this. He literally had a Post-it note of his why that he stuck on his dorm room. And it was there for three years until he sort of didn't need it anymore. You know, he talks about putting on your fridge or whatever, just as a reminder.  You know, why you don't want to use this as much anymore. But also, just as importantly, because, you know, a lot of as I again, I do a lot of well, addictions reading when it comes to tobacco and other things. A lot of people want to quit their thing quickly and he was all about, in tobacco world would call it reduce to quit, but you know you don't have to go from five or six joint a day person to zero overnight and he actually laid out sort of a plan that he did for himself.  Where he would decrease by X number of joints a week and then go, Oh, I can't do that and go back up again. And and that's exactly the sort of things we talk about when we're talking to people for quitting smoking. You don't have to do this overnight. And he spent a lot of time in his book about how to slowly reduce. And again, I'm really impressed because again, it goes nicely with what I talk about with tobacco is you're going to have relapses and that's okay. Have some compassion for yourself when you have some relapses. So, a lot of what he talked about really jives really well with what I talk about with people and tobacco. 

Kirk: When I deal with the concept of people misusing substances, that's the term that I'm starting to get into my head is misusing.  And thinking about cannabis and what I have learned about Tarris’s journey. And again, I need to read the book, but what I've read on the web about the gentleman is that he started cannabis at a very young age, and cannabis has peaked and ebbed in his life, and he has misused it. In the sense that he became dependent on it, like, yeah, walk a mile for 8 ounces. I mean, I know that there are periods in my life where, you know, birds of a feather flock together. The people that I hung with were all cannabis users at one point in my life. And I found that every time I hung with these guys, all we ever did was cannabis. So we'd sit around and listen to music and blacklight posters and twirl our thumbs and go, Wow, wow, this is cool. Listen to the guitar solo. But after, you know, several months of doing that, you want to go outside and take a bike ride, you know, or something. So, I mean, when I think of my youth in cannabis, there was many, many times in my life where cannabis dominated my actions and then I'd get tired of it and I would need to go and get out and visit other people that didn't use cannabis. So I wonder if there's a parallel story here for those of us that use cannabis as younger people. And, you know, it's cannabis is truly a culture. And back in the seventies, you know, there's a few of us doing it. So we sort of found each other, you know, and you hung with each other. And then the eighties came along and school became important and careers started becoming important. And, and so then cannabis was, I was less dependent on it because I needed to, I needed to focus on other things. So I think getting back to that balance, what I've what I surmise from the book and again, I'm so sorry I haven't read it and I do, is that there's a balance and he's asking you to do like don't give up cannabis. Just understand why, why you are a user of cannabis. I think of I think that cannabis is the great demotivator. We've used that term before. Right. So, you know, and cannabis can make people anxious, you know, if you if you smoke weed, that has way too much THC in it and you're not used to it, you can get very anxious in crowds. And Tarris, in one of his podcasts, talked about the different strains that he uses and that he likes. I think wedding cake is his favorite. And so there's that particular strain for him, gives him a balance. So, you know, if you want cannabis to put you to sleep and find a strain that helps you sleep, if you want it for pain, use it for pain if you want it for socializing. So that's what I got from what I've read about him is that he's looking at cannabis as a global thing. 

Trevor: Well, and the other thing you'll like and I think relates nicely to you is when shortly after he realized, you know, we had the big things in his life, you know. The I didn't quite make the NFL. Now what you know, and honestly, something he threw in in the interview that I don't think was in the book and ended up with testicular cancer. You know, just that little thing.  You know, you're sort of searching for something. Well, one of the things he did was, well, I don't want to use cannabis as much, but I want to learn a lot more about it. You know, think about all the things that we've learned through this podcast. So I really liked, I think worth mentioning sort of the three gurus that he sort of went to, you know, he had Kevin Demata who was sort of the pros of cannabis and the economic benefits. I know you'll love these, so hold the comment for a second. Carla Lowe and Roger Morgan, who are loosely affiliated with Nancy Reagan. We'll let you comment about Nancy Reagan in a second and Dr. Michael Kuhar and, you know, the effects of cannabis on the brain. So, you know, not only was he saying, I don't want to have as much effect in my life, he also want to learn a lot more about it. So kind of like, I don't know, podcasters, he went out and found some smart people and talked to them about it. So I know. Kirk, what do you think about Nancy Reagan and her just say no campaign? And. 

Kirk: You know, if you look at it, you look at as you grow older, I mean, yes, Nancy Reagan and Ronald Reagan, you know, and you look at where we were at when and we're not American, but the Carter administration, for crying out loud, had said, you know, we were worm composting, we were recycling. We had we had we had solar panels on the White House. And then Reagan came in and Reagan economics and just say no. And there's war on everything, anything to do with social determinants of health, anything to do with perpetuating people's wellness all of a sudden became a war on so that, you know, wealthy people became more wealthy and they just say, no. I mean, America declared war on drugs and created their own war. So we've all known that that's history. But trying to look at my path with cannabis and starting this podcast has really been a reflective journey for me. I, you know, and I think that parallels what I'm learning about Tarris's story is that there's a parallel. Cannabis has been a huge, huge part of my adolescence and a huge part of my socialization as a, as a young person and of course now as a professional and getting into nursing and I can remember getting myself in trouble recommending cannabis for people as medicine. In the late eighties and early nineties and truly getting myself in trouble for it and not really understanding enough about cannabis except intuitively realizing that cannabis has helped a lot of people in my journey. You know, I think I think I would have been medicated to the tits when I was a kid, you know? You know, I think doctors, if they knew about it back in the day, would have had me medicated down drowsy. So I wasn't the kid, you know, in the classroom fiddling in his desk. Cannabis helped me self-medicate so that I could sit in a science class and listen. Unfortunately, cannabis also took away a lot of short term memory for me. So and again, I had to mature into that. And now, you know, in the last five years becoming what I'm trying to be as a cannabis nurse and trying to help myself and others understand about cannabis. Cannabis is so much more than just rolling up a great big joint and getting mellow and listening to, you know, guitar riffs in a good stereo. It's so much more. And I think that's what this guy is all about. He's basically trying to say, take control. Cannabis is a good thing. Cannabis is a bad thing. And it gets down to misuse. Right. One thing we know about cannabis. It won't kill you. Another thing we know about cannabis is that it is less harmful. And we can say this, than alcohol. Less harmful than tobacco. 

Trevor: Right. Absolutely. 

Kirk: But yet government and society is still stuck on prohibition and the lies that we were told during those decades. And I think this book will help people get through the smoke. And I'm anxious to read it, but I think I know enough about what's going on by Googling, I mean our listeners can simply Google our guest and figure this stuff out themselves. For me. 

Trevor: And well, the link to the book in the show notes. 

Kirk: Yeah. All that. Yeah. reefermed.ca is a good web page. But yeah. So I think that's what we've done here. You've brought an author. And again, you know, it's funny how we bring guests to our show with this thought that they're going to give us a story that we want. And as you talk to the guests, you realize, oh, that's a... 

Trevor: Different story, but it's a really good story. 

Kirk: Yes. That's one of the things I really, really enjoy about doing this podcast is that we meet interesting people and conversations go where you don't expect them to go. I think this was a good interview you did. It was I think there's a good message here. And I think it goes back to the whole E1 - Why Worry? Right, when people go back to our first episode, when we when we interviewed Manitoba Addictions Foundations and they basically told us that, you know, cannabis won't kill you. Cannabis is not is not a drug to really be worried about, but it is the great demotivator. And I do know, I do know people from my youth that were harmed by cannabis. Now, was cannabis that harmed them or was it their personality, their way, their path in life? I don't know. But I do know there are a few people in my world that have fallen off because cannabis became the most important thing in their life. And unfortunately, the great demotivator, the anxiety and all that sort of stuff. And they didn't understand enough about cannabis and I think they got lost on the way. Now they're still living productive lives, but there is something missing in the socialization, in my opinion. Right. But everyone has their own path. And again, I think that's in the book, too. From what I've read, he's talking...

Trevor: Absolutely.

Kirk: about finding your path. 

Trevor: And to just sort of leave the book for a bit, some of the parts from the interview, because towards the end he was he's turning into just, you know, a fantastic quote generator. So, you know, we're talking about cannabis and football and athletics and said, you know, where do you think it's going? I thought was really interesting that he didn't talk about recovery or performance. He talked about the mental game. So that's wasn't what I expected. And then the Peyton Manning and Papa John's. When he said, yeah, so I was asking what, you know, famous athletes promoting cannabis and said, well, you know, as long as they tell the whole story, he said, and have you ever seen a Peyton Manning at a Papa John's commercial? Yes, I have. Does he ever take a bite of that pizza? No, I've never seen that. So, you know, if athletes are going to to talk about cannabis, promote cannabis, and, you know, that's their right. We think it's a great stuff. We talk about it all the time. But he just wants kind of the whole story. So the whole, did Peyton Manning take a bite of that pizza? I thought that was a fantastic way to leave that interview on. 

Kirk: Yeah, that is very true. And that goes back to Michael Jackson in the infamous Pepsi commercial. Michael Jackson never drank Pepsi ever. But you know, and he made a lot of money singing about Pepsi, the new generation, you know. So there's a lot of that a lot of that out there. 

Trevor: So, Kirk. Anything else you want to talk about with Tarris Baptist or his book, Don't Let It Smoke. 

Kirk: You know, as you're driving by to go to work tomorrow, can you slip the book in my mailbox? 

Trevor: It. Well, not now that you mentioned it. It is an electronic one. It is on the Kindle. So I have to electronically send it to you, actually, you know, completely unrelated. I really, my daughter stole the physical e-reader when she went off to Saskatoon. So it took me a little bit to figure out how to download it and put it on my laptop. And I really quite like reading a book off my laptop. I didn't think I would, but, you know, it sits nicely on my lap and you know, it is lit up so I can read it in a dark room. I'm an old blind guy, so I could make the print bigger. It's actually even really good. Sorry. Yeah, well, I think Amazon should give us a thing. It is really good for making notes because you can make you can sort of like highlight a section right there and just boom, it's it's in notes for us. So let's say you needed to prepare for a podcast. I really, really, really enjoyed doing this on electronically. So yeah, I'll get you I'll get you the electronic version shortly. 

Kirk: Interesting. Yeah. No, that's very interesting. I am I like hard books and I've had books on my phone and I've read books on my phone, but I really like I just like hard copy books. But that's a different podcast. We can go on to this now. I'm Kirk: Nyquist. I'm the registered nurse. 

Trevor: I'm Trevor Shewfelt I'm the pharmacist. 

Kirk: And we are Reefer Medness - The Podcast. You find us on all those platforms out there and I really ask people, if you listen to us, give us a rating and let us know and let other people know about us. reefermed.ca. It's our web page is quotable. Our web page is searchable. And for those health professionals that listen to us, our web page is easily searchable. So you can search for topics and stuff. So check us out and yeah. 

Trevor: And we'll talk to everybody next time. It was another good one.