Episode Transcript

Trevor: Kirk. We're back. 

Kirk: We're back. Hey Trevor. Like summers over.  Where've you been? Where've you been? 

Trevor: Summers done? Yeah, I know. It seems to have flown right on by. Got a little fishing trip in, but yeah, honestly, I spent most of the summer round Dauphin and a couple of trips up to Saskatoon to see my daughter. Couple of trips out to Pinawa to see my parents, but mostly Dauphin. 

Kirk: Yeah. Yeah. I've been putzing around. Picking a lot of apples. 

Trevor: A cider thing or what's it gonna turn into? 

Kirk: Yeah, yeah, I know. It's. Well, it wasn't a very good year for bees, so I didn't get as much honey as I usually get. But I got a lot of a lot of apples, bumper crop for apples. So I've been picking apples. And I even went down to the Morden Corn and. 

Trevor: Apple Festival. 

Kirk: Yeah. Yeah. And I wanted to stop in and see one of our past guest that would have been Mark Hendrick from "Episode 70 - Can a junkie drop heroin, making cannabis his new heroin." And he sent me a message and so yeah he has completely dropped heroin. He's off of he is off of the methadone Suboxone. He's tapered off Suboxone. And he was using Krypton and cannabis cannabinoid to get off. So he's he's now living living off opiates completely and using cannabis. So that's an update on episode 70. 

Trevor: Good.

Kirk: Kind of cool. 

Trevor: I hope I hope things are still going well. 

Kirk: Yeah. Yeah. So shout out to Mark there. So then I've been trying to get this one, this episode here on Cannabis Amnesty forever. 

Trevor: Yeah. I was going to say, you, you've been talking about Cannabis Amnesty forever and my apologies they're a fantastic group. Do you know how hard, I usually a pretty good speller? I cannot spell amnesty. I have it. Look it up every time. I can't do it. I've got a block. 

Kirk: Well, I'm not the best speller, but how I spell amnesty is there's a nest in the middle of it. So that's how I remember it. Yeah. So Cannabis Amnesty. I mean, as a nurse, the Canadian Nursing Association has been speaking about this forever. And, you know, there's, you know, back in the day when cannabis was illegal for those people that remember. The police spent a lot of time, you know, and Aisha, our guest speaks to this. They spend a lot of time bothering people for cannabis and it always seemed to be marginalized people that got busted. Right. So the Canadian Nursing Association figured that cannabis laws were impacting people significantly. There was more than like in 2013. Each year, Canada spent more than $1,000,000,000 to enforce cannabis possession laws, arresting more than 60,000 people for simple possession in 2013. And at least 500,000 people carry a criminal charge for the offense. So, you know, we spent a lot of money on cannabis enforcement, you know, Just Say No. And finally, 2018, the Trudeau Government figured, you know, let's get rid of this. But what they forgot is they forgot about those 500,000 people that are sitting out there for a record, having a criminal record for a substance that now is legal. 

Trevor: Yeah. And well, there's lots of things I'd like to what what Aisha said. But, you know, she starts off with true amnesty for those with a cannabis criminal record. And as she gets into, that's not as easy as you think. It's not, like I said, off camera. It's not like a click of a click of a mouse. And, you know, it's all gone away. It's it's more complicated than you think. And she goes into and for our American listeners, I don't know if you use this term, so I'll use it now and then define it. So BIPOC. So in Canada we talk about that being black, indigenous and people of color. So we'll call it racialized BIPOC people. It's a bigger deal than like unfortunately everything else in law enforcement and health care and and and racialized people. It's it's definitely a bigger deal. She talks about how much more likely you are to be were to have been arrested for simple cannabis possession if you are an identifiable person of color. Yeah. There I learned I learned a lot from this one. 

Kirk: On cannabisamnesty.ca. They have a very simple web page. The organization, they say they're nine times more indigenous people are arrested for cannabis. So, yeah, there's definitely a color a color screened lenses that go into law enforcement. And I think that's anywhere. White privilege is, you know. Sometimes we forget about our white privilege. And I don't know if I discussed this with you within the podcast, but that was an example of Michelle and I. We spent February, March and April out on the West Coast, Vancouver Island, traveling around in Van Hoop, visiting people. And there was a point of time where Michelle and I are walking in the inner harbor of Victoria. We had a few drinks, I had a couple at a couple hoots. So I was I was high and I was obviously feeling my liquor. And Michelle and I are you know, we're people of an age. We're doing our walking around the Inner Harbor and we had to use the toilet. So we walk into one of the, you know, one of the harbor upper five star hotels. And we walked in and, you know, we weren't obviously stumbling around, but we walked in as if we owned the place and went use the facilities and walked out. And as I was walking out, I looked over at Michelle and I said, was that an example of white privilege? Here we are, you know, enjoying ourselves. We're obviously under the influence of something. And we just stumbled in and used a bathroom. How would that have been for a person of color? Would they have been stopped? I mean, there was security. So I wonder, you know, and Aisha our guest, we haven't introduced her yet, she will introduce herself, but she mentions how, you know, back in the day, law enforcement would use cannabis and bothered people of color just to bother them. 

Trevor: Yeah, yeah. No, she explains that far better than we do. But let's just another number and we'll talk lots more afterwards. You mentioned it, but it's just worth mentioning again, 500,000 people in Canada have some sort of, we'll call it cannabis conviction, sort of sitting over their heads right now for a substance that is currently not illegal. So, you know, if they're trying to get a job, if they're trying to volunteer at their kid's school, if they get a passport, you know, this keeps coming up and keeps getting in the way of sort of going about a normal life for something that, if they did today, would not be illegal at all. So so that's that's my understanding of the big reason why Cannabis Amnesty is is around. 

Kirk: Yeah. No. And they're there to help people out. Before we start, we should do a couple. As I was talking to her, there is some terminology we need to sort of look through here. I talked to her about pardons versus suspensions. 

Trevor: Okay.

Kirk: So what I'm looking at, I'm looking at canada.ca, the public safety web page. And this is Bill C 93. And what I understand is that and also looking at Canada, Canadianlegal.org so it's a legal organization. It's basically a Pardon and a Record Suspension are the same thing. So in the terminology of as we go forward in this interview, I don't know if that's fully explained, but a Pardon and a Record Suspension are the same thing, the difference between an Expungement. So it says here, what is the difference between this is on the Public Safety Canada.ca, English Public Safety Canada News Feed. What is the difference being a Pardon and an Expungement? The purpose of a Pardon is to reduce barriers to reintegration by facilitating access to job opportunities, education, program, housing, and even the ability to simply volunteer for charitable organizations under federal jurisdiction. The effect of a pardon is fully protected by the Canadian Human Rights Act. Federally suspended criminal records can only be disclosed by the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness in exceptional circumstances and would not normally be disclosed when background checks are conducted such as employment, housing and or passport. Now, an Expungement is an extraordinary measure reserved for cases where the criminalization of the activity in question and the law never should have existed, such as in cases that violate the Charter, for example. I think why Cannabis Amnesty is asking for Expungement is that because the Cannabis Act now makes cannabis legal. People that had records beforehand, it should never have happened. So that's why they're looking for an expungement. 

Trevor: Yeah, right. And Aisha goes into that more. So how about we have Aisha talk then we'll give our amateur legal analysis at the end. 

Kirk: Fair enough. 

Aisha Abawajy: My name is Aisha Abawajy. I am currently working this summer as a TOQI fellow with Cannabis Amnesty, a not for profit organization that advocates for the rights of individuals who have been historically wronged by decades of cannabis prohibition. So TOQI is the one of the organizations that sponsored this fellowship. And this is the first year this fellowship has been in place with Cannabis Amnesty. And so I'm very excited to be a part of this great project that will hopefully continue for many years to come. So I am studying at the Lincoln Alexander School of Law at the Toronto Metropolitan University, and I am headed to my second year of law school in September. I from a young age, I think I've been very interested and quite fascinated by the ways in which society is structured, and particularly the ways in which some individuals are marginalized and disadvantaged at the expense and privilege of others. And just seeing that the way that played out in my life and in my community. I got involved in advocacy work to kind of try to make a difference for the people in my lives and the people around me and do the little things that I could to make our lives better. And as I've gone through that over the years, I've learned more and more about the systemic problem within all of it, and that we need systemic solutions to these systemic problems that have existed for years and will continue existing for years if we do not actively engage with, are aware of and work to dismantle. 

Kirk: That's where you want to take your law degree is into advocacy. 

Aisha Abawajy: I think law is one avenue in which our society is structured upon and the ways in which power is able to continue existing and be utilized by folks who do have wealth. I think is a big things. So, you know, I learned a lot in my first year at criminal law, tort law, property law, and a lot of it really is about who has access to justice and who's able to afford a lawyer to take your case to court and go through the many years that it takes to bring a trial or case to justice. And the reality is, most people don't have that opportunity. And so I want to think about and figure out how we can maybe change the law to create more opportunities for people to get their justice. And also really think about what does justice actually mean and who is getting the justice and who's benefiting from our justice system. 

Kirk: So your first year, first year law student? 

Aisha Abawajy: Yes, I'll be going to my second year. 

Kirk: And do you have an entry degree? Do you have a degree already? 

Aisha Abawajy: Yeah. So I graduated from Dalhousie University with a Bachelor of Applied Computer Science minor in political science. 

Kirk: Congratulations. So you have a summer job. Sounds like a cool job for you. Cannabis Amnesty Can you give me a little bit of a lowdown on the organization? What's the goals of the organization? 

Aisha Abawajy: So Cannabis Amnesty is fighting for true amnesty for individuals who have a cannabis record. And so true amnesty to us means that it is permanent. It is free and the record is expunged. And so. You know, since cannabis has been legalized about four years ago, not a lot of thought, I think on the government side have been has been put in to the consequences of what those individuals who've previously been saddled with a cannabis conviction are able to benefit from now that cannabis is legal.  It's simple cannabis possession for the most part. But these individuals are dealing with huge collateral consequences, whether that be access to employment opportunities, traveling across the border to the U.S., being able to volunteer for organizations. Even parental rights can be impacted by having a cannabis conviction. And so individuals today are being punished for a crime that is no longer, it's a legal activity. It's not a crime anymore. So an activity that's no longer illegal. And yet Cannabis Amnesty believe that it's important that we right this wrong, especially when we think about the disproportionate impact that racialized black and indigenous communities as well as other marginalized communities, have been historically overrepresented in cannabis arrests. 

Kirk: Follow up with that. Go a little deeper. How do you mean that in that regard? 

Aisha Abawajy: Yeah. So, you know, the stats are pretty clear. There is excessive and punitive laws that disproportionately harm black Indigenous communities throughout the criminal justice system. We see that specifically low income Canadians and black Indigenous communities are more likely to be stopped. More likely to be searched, arrested, prosecuted and incarcerated for cannabis possession offenses. And we know through the data that Canadians across the board have been using cannabis at equal rates. And yet in Vancouver, Indigenous people are nearly seven times more likely to be arrested for cannabis possession. In Halifax, where I'm from, black folks are four times more likely to be arrested for possession. In Regina, Indigenous people are nine times more likely to be arrested for possession. And in Toronto, black people are three times more likely to be arrested for the possession of cannabis. 

Kirk: Interesting about how you language. Is this still happening or is this past record? So are people still being arrested for cannabis charges? 

Aisha Abawajy: So for the simple possession of cannabis, no.  Those are, that has been with the Cannabis Act decriminalized. So these would be. Yes. The historic numbers before. 

Kirk: Okay. So these these are the clients that you're wrestling with now, people you're working with now. 

Aisha Abawajy: So these are the people exactly who we work with who are dealing with the collateral consequences of a cannabis conviction. 

Kirk: So let's go back a bit then before we go to legalization, do you have any statistics on the amount of money was spent by governments before legalization like cannabis was considered one of the top criminal activities, was it not? 

Aisha Abawajy: Yeah. So I don't have much numbers around specifically the money of government, but I do have some numbers around what arrests were looking like and how how the enforcement of our cannabis laws were going. So the Narcotics Act of 1961 made cannabis a Schedule One offense, and at that point, stricter penalties were being put in place for cannabis possession. So that would be seven years of imprisonment for possession and then up to life for supplying and trafficking and other related offenses. So that by 1990s, we estimate that over 500,000 Canadians had criminal records related to cannabis. And under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, which is what we have around today, nearly 60,000 Canadians are arrested annually or were arrested annually for simple cannabis possession in the past 15 years. And the police report that they had 800,000 cannabis possession incidents in those years. So the numbers do clearly show that the government put a lot of effort and energy and money into the enforcement of cannabis. Convictions and offenses. 

Kirk: Right. Okay. So explain to me what what what were people being charged with? Usually what happens is they get charged with a couple of different offenses and usually a couple of them get dropped and they and they are convicted on one or two. Do you have any any stories on how that worked, where they charged on a couple of different and they would drop them? What was the typical conviction, I guess? 

Aisha Abawajy: Yeah. So I don't have any stories that I'm aware or my own personal stories, but I have heard through working with the folks at Cannabis Amnesty about this concept of the magical joint in which police would see individuals, young, racialized folks, interact with them. And then somewhere in the record, you know, once they've been arrested or convicted or it was just, you know, a stop and search. Somewhere in the record, cannabis would come up as a reason for why the police interacted with these individuals in the first place. And then later, when you look into the actual police files and records of what was kept, you wouldn't find any cannabis anywhere. And so it was often used as a reason to engage with, it would be like the smell of cannabis we smell smelled in the car or, you know, he saw someone smoking and it looked like cannabis. And so it was often used as a pretense or a reason to engage with individuals and start that police interaction. And once a police interaction starts, it can escalate very quickly. And, you know, individuals are often taken to the jail, can't afford the bail are now spending a night there and have to deal with all this legal mess that they necessarily might necessarily not be able to afford a lawyer to then come in and support them. 

Kirk: So it it maybe a little bit Law 101.  A summary conviction versus a criminal record. What are all the different types of convictions you can have for cannabis? What is a summary conviction? For example. 

Aisha Abawajy: You're taking me back to my. 

Kirk: Law 101,  are people not charged with a criminal record when they were busted for cannabis. 

Aisha Abawajy: So a criminal record you would get when you are convicted of the crime. And so that would be cannabis possession, which was a Schedule One offense at the time before cannabis was legalized. And so that would show up on your record as like a simple cannabis possession. I can remember exactly how many grams that would be, but in terms of the way a person is convicted, so first he'd be convicted, go through the trial, often times people plead guilty because they think it's easier or know their legal aid lawyer might tell them it's just easier to like take the charge and not have to go through a lengthy trial. And so a Summary Conviction usually is not someone isn't arrested in that case and they're just given notice to appear in court on a certain date and time. And then an Indictable Offense is a more serious offense. And so that would proceed with someone being arrested with the Indictable Offense and then going through that whole process of the court having to apply for bail and all those all that stuff. And then a Hybrid Offense is kind of the mix between the two. And so within a Hybrid Offense, the Prosecutor can choose based on various factors in the situation, how to proceed with it either as a Summary Conviction or an Indictable Offense. 

Kirk: Okay. So but a Summary Conviction is still a criminal record. 

Aisha Abawajy: Yeah. So Summary Conviction, you'll have that record in your in a police record. And then if you were found guilty of the crime, that's when your criminal record would show that you have been convicted of the crime. 

Kirk: Okay, so my using the terms wrong Summary Conviction versus Indictable Offense. 

Aisha Abawajy: Yeah. So I guess an offense is an offense is the activity that you would have allegedly been accused of committing.  So you're charged with that offense. Okay. Until proven guilty. It's not a conviction until at the very end when the judge rules. 

Kirk: So Cannabis Amnesty estimates that there's a half a million Canadians with a criminal record of cannabis possession. Right. Simple possession. Not we're not talking about dealers here. We're not talking about any of that. It's just simple conviction, simple possession. That's five and a half million people. 

Aisha Abawajy: Yeah, an estimated 500. 

Kirk: So now this limits their activity. It limits what they can do for their world. So, for example, with the criminal record, people cannot travel, I guess, and they can't get certain jobs. Right. So so what what is it that what is it that your organization organization's trying to do? What's. I guess the question is, what is the difference between a suspension, a pardon and an expunge record? 

Aisha Abawajy: Right. So right now, under Bill C 93, which was implemented through advocacy of cannabis amnesty and other organizations, which allows for the suspension of records. And so a record suspension does not permanently delete a record, but it merely sets it aside in its own separate database. And so when a record is suspended, it won't show up on the regular criminal background checks that an employer or other organization might do. But it still does exist somewhere in the database, and it can still be accessed in certain situations. And I think the most significant thing is that it can be reinstated at a later date. 

Kirk: Okay, so what is a pardon? 

Aisha Abawajy: So a pardon is similar. I believe it is similar language. So the pardon program implements a suspension. And so it's similar language basically around the same thing where it's the record is kept separate and apart from other records and it can still be reinstated. And so an expungement, which is what Cannabis Amnesty calls for, is the complete deletion of the record in all jurisdictions that it might exist so that there is no no more record existing of this individual with this conviction. 

Kirk: Okay. So you bring up the you bring up the the concept of when employer asks for criminal record checks, it seems like every job you apply for now requires a criminal record check and a child abuse registry. So if I had an Expunded or Pardoned conviction from 20 years ago and I go to an employer and say, I want a job, they say, give us a criminal record check. You go to the local police office and you ask for a record check. So if you have a Pardon, they it will come up as I'm convicted. Is there anything else or is there another step? There's a flag go up saying that this person's birthdate met meet someone else's birth date. Like, what's the process of getting that criminal record check? If I. If I have a Pardoned conviction. 

Aisha Abawajy: Yeah. So there's really not a lot of clarity around what that looks like, unfortunately. Another step that complicates it is that there's various records for individuals at courthouses, at Provincial, at the Provincial level, in the individual police departments across the country, and then also at the Federal level. And so what the Pardon does and this current Pardon program and regime, what that does is it deletes the record or it keeps the records separate and apart at the Federal level. And so that's what this Pardon program does. However, although the RCMP would inform the Federal or the Provincial and Municipal parties of this Pardon, the way in which it's implemented at the Municipal and Provincial level is totally up to that party. And as well, the records are kept. Like I said, some are in paper file, some are in a warehouse stacked on boxes upon boxes, and the others are in the electronic database. And so there really is no clarity around exactly where the record has been deleted, where the record has been kept. And so it is on the individual to try to understand where their records are, where they might have been convicted or charged and get rid of or attempt to have it completely Pardoned. And at the same time, the U.S. doesn't recognize a Canadian Pardon. And so if you're crossing the border to the US and you're asked, have you ever been charged or convicted of a crime in Canada, even though you have a Canadian Pardon? Your answer is yes. You have been convicted because they don't recognize the Pardon and it will be flagged in their system that you were convicted of the cannabis charge. 

Kirk: Wow. That's that's new to me, because I'm going I'm going to share a story. In regards to the late seventies, a buddy of mine got busted for cannabis. He was a young lad, 18 years old. Got a criminal record, went through the process. Five years later he got a Pardon and he travels the world and he's never had a problem. And every time he crosses a border, he says he has no history of record because when he got his documentation from the Federal Government and what had been 1982, I guess it said you do not have to declare any. This record gone. Like it's Pardon. I mean it was it was a legal sized piece of paper with a stamp on it. It's almost like a diploma you want to put on the wall. You've been Pardoned. It's not something you want to hang on the wall. But it was pretty official looking. But he travels the world. So how does that work? 

Aisha Abawajy: Well, I've heard stories of other individuals who do take that document with them when they travel and show that to border officers. I've also pretty recently heard stories, actually, of individuals who've never had an issue crossing the border until they applied for their Pardon recently under the Bill C 93 regime. And that's when their issue started occurring, where it was flagged in the system when they traveled to the U.S. that they have a charge or a conviction. And so because, like I said, the databases, you know, there is no single repository of all this information. It's electronic sized. It's in paper form. It's in warehouses. It's in courthouses and police stations. So there is no really uniform way this will manifest in Canadians lives. And so yeah. 

Kirk: So that's interesting because what I guess what in this scenario, it was 1978, I mean, this was a Municipal police department, so it would have been all paper back then. And then when he did apply for the Federal pardon, it's wiped out of the federal database. But I imagine if he went back to the Municipal police department, they might have paper on him someplace, even though it's. Pardon? 

Aisha Abawajy: Yeah. 

Kirk: Whereas an expungement would get rid of all that paper. Everything's gone. 

Aisha Abawajy: Yes. So an expungement would delete all records of files and ensure that it never shows up anywhere. It can never be reinstated in the future. Courts don't have access to any record whatsoever, and so that will completely wipe it and gives many Canadians peace of mind in all aspects of their lives. 

Kirk: Okay, so so Cannabis Amnesty is advocating for these people. Are you do you actually have a storefront? Are you actually providing legal help and doing the legal legwork for these individuals? How do they access your service? 

Aisha Abawajy: Yeah. So right now, Cannabis Amnesty is in the process of launching our Pardon Clinics. And so what our Pardon clinics do is an individual can come in and we would help them go through the entire process from start to finish. So right now with cannabis and specifically, through legalization, there was a, you know, a call for the fact that individuals who have these records but now this cannabis charge on simple cannabis possession has been legalized. What is to be done with all these individuals who are impacted? And so the government's response to that, and I've mentioned a bit earlier, was Bill C 93, a no fee expedited pardon for simple possession of Cannabis Act. And so through that process, they were hoping to expedite the pardon process for Canadians. You mentioned earlier your friend went through this Federal Pardon process. There was like a lengthy time period. I think it's between 3 to 10 years, which an individual has to wait after they paid all of their fees and served any sentence that might have been associated with that. And then there's a fee that you have to apply. I think it's about like $631, that is your Pardon Application Fee. And then there's a whole lot of work that you have to do, including going to get these very specific documents from the courts and from the police departments and from the RCMP. And if you don't have that exact document in its official form stamped in the right way, your application can and will be rejected or deemed incomplete. And so what Bill C 93 has created is this separate Pardon process for individuals with cannabis convictions. And so they waived that $631 fee. And I believe now it's like a $50 fee instead and there's no wait time associated with it. But, you know, we at Cannabis Amnesty think that even this process is simply just not enough, first and foremost. It does not Expunge the record. And we talked about why that's pretty important. And so we believe that the fact that in possession of cannabis is no longer a crime, Expungement is the adequate remedy for the situation. Also, even though the fee of $631, which is, you know, to a lot of people a big deal and something that is insurmountable for them. There's a lot of ancillary fees, including when you go to get your record and you have to pay each department the different things. So it does come up to, we estimate $250 in order to do your complete Pardon process from start to finish. And so it's also a pretty lengthy process and which you don't have like a legal, legalese mind or a lawyer supporting you or a legal minded person supporting you. You can potentially do something incorrect and have to go through the entire process again. And we've now heard from, you know, from research that many people, the idea of even going through the whole Pardon process and what they get out of it, it's just not worth the amount of work that's required, the amount of money that's required. And it's just not something people are able to do. And so we are Cannabis Amnesty are starting our Pardon clinics and we will cover the cost of the Pardon, which comes to up to $250 for individuals. We will support them from start to finish of the process, getting the correct documents they need, ensuring that they know which documents they need. And we will go over the application to ensure that everything is in place as it needs to be to be appropriately approved by the government and hopefully supports by eliminating some of the barriers for individuals who would otherwise not be able to apply for the pardon. And you know, we at Cannabis Amnesty, we think the whole regime under Bill C 93, although it is better than what existed before, there are still a lot of issues. The government estimates that about 250,000 people are eligible for a Pardon. And we've only received 852 applications. And I think that's since March 2022. Out of the 250,000 people eligible, only 852 have applied. And so. Clearly there are major barriers preventing individuals from being able to access this pardon. And then interestingly enough, from the 852 applications received, only 536 were approved, 310 were deemed incomplete, and three were approved and then later discontinued. 

Kirk: The government estimates a quarter million. And your organization estimates a half million. Where's the disconnect there? 

Aisha Abawajy: So I think it's the eligibility for a Pardon. 

Kirk: So that goes back to the whole possession versus other other convictions. 

Aisha Abawajy: Yes. So it's for simple cannabis possessions. 

Kirk: Okay. 

Aisha Abawajy: In fact, this Bill C 93 regime in that Pardon system of work. And yes, so it's an estimated around 10000 to 250000 are eligible for this specific pardon process. 

Kirk: Okay. Okay. So that because I had asked upfront and it was for so simple possession between 10000 to 250000 for simple possession, the other people that equal the 500,000, they might have other convictions associated with it. Okay, fair enough. So. So, yeah. So what do you think are the barriers preventing people from applying? 

Aisha Abawajy: Yeah. So I think first the cost. I think $631 application fee was a lot and is a lot for some individuals. And when you think about who are the individuals who might have cannabis possession, as we talked about, it's marginalized individuals, low income Canadians, Black and Indigenous communities. And so this fee is quite substantial. But even with that fee waived, there are certain documents that you need to get certified criminal records from the RCMP, supporting documents from the police and various documents from courts. And these are costly and constitute another barrier to access the application process. And then, like I said, there's a lot of I guess an emotional aspect of it too. Where individuals are like, I have to do all of this work and these are individuals who are trying to get their lives back together and they have lots of things they need to work on and do. And so this whole, this lengthy process that they know is going to be lengthy, that they know has a low approval rating going through that entire process to then maybe potentially get a pardon that doesn't necessarily deal with all of the issues related to a criminal conviction to begin with. So some individuals might just not see it as worthwhile to do so. 

Kirk: Okay. And what are some of the successes you've had as an organization? 

Aisha Abawajy: Yeah. Lots. So the Bill C 93, we actually worked with the government and we were advocating to government on this. Of course, they didn't accept all of our recommendations, but this is a start and so we are excited for that. We recently launched our Legalize US Campaign, which was an awareness and educational campaign to show, share with and show Canadians the collateral consequences of cannabis and what that means to about 500,000 Canadians and bring that to awareness. Because if people are aware of issues, they're more likely to care and more likely to support them. So that's always important. We had our Expungement Campaign, which was a national petition that was signed by 10,000 Canadians, sending it to Members of Parliament advocating for Expungement. We recently held a town hall on cannabis and racialized justice, racial justice for industry and some cannabis industry, talking to them about ways in which the industry can support racial justice and social justice as a fundamental part of the cannabis industry. So yeah, we are the TOQI fellows with my fellowship right now is like the work, the Cannabis Amnesty put behind creating a paid internship. Designated to create economic opportunities for individuals harmed or communities harmed by decades of cannabis prohibition. We're also working on developing our Cannabis Amnesty Alliance, which is a call to action targeting prospective employers to specifically not consider criminal records of cannabis convictions when they are hiring and to be part of the alliance and be part of organizations that will not to look at a record for cannabis possession as a reason not to hire somebody. 

Kirk: Okay. And how does someone access your services? Now you're in Toronto, but if I'm in Victoria or Halifax, how do I access your services? 

Aisha Abawajy: Yeah, so many Pardon Clinics specificaly are still in the development phase right now. We are hoping to launch within 2023. And so there will be one in our main clinic in our offices in Toronto. We are on Queen and Dufferin and so individuals to come there. We're also hoping to have a another office, I believe, in Winnipeg is where our second office would be to help to be in that part of the country. And so we have. So let me get the correct email for you. I believe it is This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. And so individuals can shoot an email there to get more information about once our services are active. 

Kirk: Okay. Is there anything I didn't ask you? Is there anything you want to bring forward that I have not asked? 

Aisha Abawajy: Well, I think just really recognizing the disproportionate impact that cannabis prohibition has had on the lives of Black and Indigenous and low income Canadians, and just the way that continues to propel systemic disadvantages within society and within families and within communities. And so I think it's really important that when we think about cannabis legalization and these individuals who have been left behind by the Canadian government to think about it as not just a an issue as just individuals in general, but is specifically a very racialized issue where racialized individuals have been dealing with the brunt of the prohibition around cannabis. And I think everyone has a voice and everyone can call, E-mail, write a letter to their local MP asking for full Expungements for cannabis records. And I just think it's not fair that we today can enjoy walking down to our local cannabis store and consuming cannabis. And there's still lots and lots and lots of Canadians who are dealing with the many consequences of having a criminal record and for being in the system and in the police systems because of this. 

Trevor: All right, Kirk. Lots of things surprise me about this one and feel free to to jump in. You mentioned off the top, it's worth mentioning again. In Vancouver, if you're Indigenous, you are seven times more likely to be arrested for cannabis possession. Halifax, Black four times more likely. Regina Indigenous nine times more likely. Toronto, Black three times more likely. Like it's, you know, two old white guys talking about white privilege. But white privilege. It's a thing. 

Kirk: It's a thing. And it's more and more obvious and especially when it comes to the law. I mean, how many times how many times do you know as. I walk home, as you know, Michelle and I walk all over town, Dauphin is, what, two kilometers by two Kilometer, two miles by two miles as a small town. So we walk everywhere and we have never been bothered. You know, as we walk down the street, we go visit you guys. We visit we visit friends on the south side of town. We walk down the street. Michelle and I are never bothered. So we never. I mean, and we are. I mean, we're walking because we like to exercise, but we're walking because we're indulging in in substances that we shouldn't be driving. So as we're walking down the street, animated and talking to each other after a good evening, we're not bothered. 

Trevor: And in fairness, Michelle, you're kind of making it sounds like the two of you are walking out drunk and stoned all the time. I've seen you many times walking what you are what you're not doing in any way. 

Kirk: Of course. But, you know, 2:00 in the morning, you're walking home from a and you're and you're and you've had a good dinner and you've had a good visit and you've you've obviously, you know, should not be driving. You know, RCMP have driven past us. We've never been bothered.  Now is that white privilege? Is that because I'm not carrying a stone and I don't have a molotov cocktail in my hand? I don't know. But I wonder, you know, it makes you wonder. So when you hear these statistics, other people's are bothered. And it's a shame that that happens. 

Trevor: Yes. So and you mentioned this I top to and she went into more detail. Suspension slash Pardon. So this surprised me. I'm not a legal expert at all. So. So it I use the word Pardon. So you're you don't have a your criminal record didn't exactly disappear. It just kind of got moved to a different database for the way she was explaining it. And if we have angry lawyers out there saying that's not right, call us, we'd love to talk to you about it. But so it just got moved to a different database. So, you know, if I apply for a job, the regular criminal records check that they do what I apply for a job. It doesn't come up because it's a different, different database. But I was also a little surprised that I'm not saying there isn't or there isn't supposed to be sort of a central database of all of these things. But it also sounds like it's a maybe not the best organized system where you can have paper files somewhere. You could have them in a police station, in a warehouse, you could have electronic versions. So even just finding to remove them or move them into a different database can be can be logistically difficult. 

Kirk: Well, yeah. And you think about the process and again, you know, we're not experts, but just, you know, I'm thinking about the scenario I given when I talked to her. You know, 18 year old guy gets busted in Saanich, British Columbia, which is has its own municple police force. So you know that that police force has a record. That police department has a record of that engagement with that individual. That individual goes to a Provincial court or the Provincial Court house charged with a Federal crime. So, you know, the Federal the Federal database has you as having been convicted. And I went back and also looked up the difference between a difference between an Indictable and Summary conviction. And back in the day, cannabis possession is a Summary Conviction. So a summary charge, not an indictable charge. So that's something I also discovered in further research. But what happens is that you've got that you've got that Summary charge by the Saanch Police Department. You've gone to a Provincial Courthouse with a Federal record. So all those jurisdictions have a copy paper, digital. So my understanding is a Federal Pardon just eliminates the Federal database, not necessarily the Municipality or the Province. Not necessarily. It may. It should, but not doesn't necessarily happen. 

Trevor: Yeah. Aisha talked about that. That is one of the things that Cannabis Amnesty is sort of fighting for is, you know, if when these things get Pardons slashed Expunged, I'll get into the defense in a second trying to get all these different levels to agree on, you know, where the record is and to really, really remove it. So, so Aisha talked about it. But one more time, Kirk. So, so Pardon? It didn't really go away. And the Pardons slashed suspension. And she also said could theoretically also be reinstated. It just goes into a different database. But Expungement is what it goes away completely. 

Kirk: An Expungement?  It's according to the definition I have on Canada.ca public Safety Canada News Feed this is Bill C 93. What is the difference between Pardon and Expungement? Expungement is an extraordinary measure reversed for cases where the criminalization of the activity in question and the law never should have existed, such as in the case where it violates the charter. If the an applicant for Expungement is ordered, records of that convention are permanently destroyed from Federal databases, Federal databases. So it may not be it may not be expunged from the city police department that you were that you had the original interaction with. 

Trevor: Okay. And now, because I've seen ads on TV, you know, do you have a criminal record? You know, let Pardon Services Manitoba or whatever the at some company name help you get your Pardon so you can do things like travel but Aisha mentioned that just because you get a Pardon for something doesn't necessarily mean that say the U.S. is going to recognize that. Which, you know, kind of goes against why I would get a you know, not not that travel is necessarily the biggest reason to get it. You know, I assume employment's the biggest reason to get it. But, you know, travel is a significant reason why you might want to get a Pardon. And so just because you're Pardoned in Canada doesn't necessarily mean that places like the U.S. are going to recognize that. And so defeats the purpose is a little too strong. But yeah, you go through all the trouble and expense of getting a Pardon and it might not help anyway. 

Kirk: Well, and this again, going back to the reference Canada.ca Public Safety News, the question is: how does pardon impact an individual's ability to travel? Well, here's the here's the government's answer. As with Expungement and this is interesting, right? They throw that caption "As with" but then there's nowhere in the document talks about it. But anyways, "as with expungement, a pardon does not guarantee a person's entry or visa privilege to another country because the foreign jurisdictions are not bound by Canadian law. Entry and exit requirements are the discretion of each country. So any foreign country, including United States, may have documented previous interactions with the individual, which may include an individual's Canadian criminal record. Well, when when required by foreign border officials, these individuals will be able to provide the required documents." So if I read if I read in to here, if you have a Canadian Pardon and you want to travel, you may want to take the document. Well, not may. You will provide the documents when you enter the border, the border crossing. So, you know I use. 

Trevor: This but I you she said some people weren't having any problems at all until now. We're not trying to break the law, but they weren't having any problems at all until they said, hey, I'm going to do the right thing and show the border guard my Pardon thing. And now they suddenly start having problems. 

Kirk: Yeah, because the flag goes up. It's all rather confusing. Right. And, of course, didn't didn't America threaten not to allow anybody across the border who had any cannabis, ah, cannabis business or cannabis conviction back in 2018 when all of this legalization was happening. 

Trevor: Ya, to the point that we were talking to people who work for cannabis companies who, you know, had dealings on both sides of the border and they officially changed their business cards to not say, I'm a cannabis company, I'm a biotech company. So, you know, it scared everybody back in 2018. So but we're before we get too far down another rabbit hole. Bill C 93. So I didn't realize pardons were so freaking expensive. So Aisha was saying, you know, based base of it, $631, you probably can't apply until it's been 5 to 10 years after your conviction. And then there's lots of difficult paperwork and extra fees and just in general, really hard to do without a lawyer. Someone with Legal training? What is Bill C 93 supposed to be doing? 

Kirk: I think it's still the Senate, because what I'm reading here, again, looking at Bill 93, the government in Canada. The act. An act to provide no cost expurgated records suspension for simple possession of cannabis has received royal assent. Once in effect, the legislation will expediate pardon process. 

Trevor: Let's just call it the assumption that it's working right now because they were talking about doing cannabis pardoned clinics, they being Cannabis Amnesty. So the idea is, you know, instead of this $631 and bunch of paperwork, the government was trying to make this easier for people get pardons for simple cannabis possession and Cannabis Amnesty was involved in in getting this law into effect. So that's good. So, you know, they do commend the government on trying, but it sounds like even no fee expedited Pardon is not exactly no fee. They calculated with all the extra stuff because government there's always extra stuff and extra fees still probably going to run you $250. So that's still going to be beyond the means of many people. So it sounds like cannabis amnesty is going to run clinics where they will cover the $250 cost of all the miscellaneous fees and basically help you do the paperwork because again, even expedited doesn't mean easy. So, you know, we commend them on that. That sounds like a really good thing that they're working towards. 

Kirk: I guess I remember reading. Oh, gosh, I can't remember the exact source, but essentially I think it was a nurse nursing literature where I don't know why or why are we forcing people to go through the system? Why why cannot why can't the government go to the database, figure out the 250,000 that are out there and just get rid of it. Just say, okay, we're doing it for you, but I guess we got to pay for that service. It seems it doesn't seem like. 

Trevor: It is ridiculous. 

Kirk: It does seem a little ridiculous. And once again, it's people, it's marginalized people that are affected by these things. And marginalized people don't always don't always have the patience to go through processes. And it's sort of I think it's very much I think it's very much a cycle. Right. Because going back to white privilege, first of all, you know, you're you're a person of color. You picked out you're picked out by the law enforcement officer. You go through the process. They charge you for simple possession, let's say ten years ago. And now, you know, you've been you've been hindered by this. Whatever else has happened with poverty, education, Social Determinants of Health, you're struggling to go through life. And now cannabis is legal, you know, gee whiz, why don't I go get my Pardon and then you're you're you're blasted with process and process and process and and I'm thinking people just screw it, you know? 

Trevor: Yeah. And and so to give government a little more credit, again, I'm not saying they're not perfect, but earlier on you heard us talk about 500,000 people with some kind of cannabis conviction on their file impeding their life. So it looks like sort of at first blush, the government's estimates are about 250,000. So about half of them should be kind of on the face fit eligible for this expedited pardon. So that's good. But unfortunately, Aisha says only about 850 people have actually applied. And of those, 300 have already been denied because, you know, not enough paperwork and not not enough crossing T's and dotting I's and that sort of thing. So the government's got a lot of work ahead of them and unfortunately it looks like Cannabis Amnesty does too, because even the the fast, easy process is neither fast nor easy. 

Kirk: Yeah. On the Web page, annabisamnesty.ca, they're pretty much saying out of out of those 250,000, 500,000, depending which number you use, 536 people have been granted. And I guess I guess in in nursing as a nurse, I'm a registered nurse. I'm thinking the government should just say, you know what, let's just do this. And just those names. They're gone. Send them all letter.  And we've done it for you. Right. And and I'm wondering how long would that take government employee to sit down at their desk and filter through a database with that information? You would think it wouldn't take long and put the initiative on the government because the government has decided that non medicinal cannabis is a legal substance. So should the government not, I mean, I guess this is what, what, why we have organizations like Cannabis Amnesty is that the government should just get off their asses and get this done.  You know, and just move forward. Except instead of allowing people to work through the process and more anxieties, flags going up, it just seems it just seems cumbersome. 

Trevor: Oh, yeah, though. Absolutely. So not that we can't come back to Cannabis Amnesty, but on a slightly different track, you have been sending emails back and forth with another section of the government, the the provincial section in relation to things like cannabis catering and cannabis food and cannabis events. Have they sent you any kind of updates lately? 

Kirk: Yeah. Yeah, I think I left it last time that I got a terse email from somebody basically saying that that the that the money goes to general coffers. I sent them back. It says, ah, yeah, we've answered your question by going into this is again by anonymous newsroom. Anonymous. Again, no greeting. "We've answered the question by going into general revenue, the fee will do exactly what it says below. It will support government programs like health, education, etc.." So I tried to follow up about that and asked them about the money going to specific programs. And no, they pretty much sent me back to the Liquor Commission, Liquor, Liquor Cannabis Board. And it's stalled there. But one of our. Okay. Yeah. The news the newsroom told me that this is managed by Liquor Gaming Cannabis Authority of Manitoba. They do their own media relations. So I so I sent them, I said, thank you very much. But they hadn't got back to me. I asked them to "whom it may concern, could you please give me some information about successes with the money?" It's basically government, government, you know, just government sending me back emails saying that they've answered my question. But another fellow, you'll remember, Stephen Stairs. 

Trevor: Manitoba's, loud advocate,. 

Kirk: Loudest advocate. Yeah, we did an episode with him. What episode was that? That was episode 82. He got back to me and he's been trying to get the government on FIFA freedom information. And he's also getting the runaround from them. They're not they're not answering these questions to the point I think he's doing a rally around Manitoba cannabis business need your help rally for Retailers. September 28, 10 a.m.. Manitoba Legislature join us in demanding an end to the unfair SRF on cannabis. And I think that's the. 

Trevor: Social Responsibility fee. 

Kirk: Yeah, he's been trying to get the government. So he's doing that work. Maybe. Well, maybe we'll get back to Stephen at some point when he gets a proper answer about how our taxes are being used by the Conservative government of Manitoba. 

Trevor: That sounds sounds like a story worth tracking down. So anything else to say about Cannabis Amnesty. 

Kirk: That is still not that easy, like is still, you know, I would recommend everyone go to their Web page. They have a very dramatic video about how how cannabis convictions affects people. It's very dramatic. And I guess it's just we take things for granted, you know, that that cannabis is legal, therefore, you know, let's party. But unfortunately, it's not. It's affecting lots of people and it's not that simple. And if you do decide to go get your Pardon, you may be opening yourself up for further problems traveling. It's all rather it's all rather difficult and it shouldn't be. You know, I think it goes back it goes back to how the Federal Government legalized non medicinal use of cannabis in the sense that they legalized it as if it was something to be afraid of, something to protect us from. And I think, I think everything from there goes with that, with that sort of mentality that, you know, we're going to protect people from cannabis. Opposed to saying, gee whiz, we've got this plant that's been misunderstood and actually benefits people. Maybe we should make laws that actually demonstrates how cannabis helps people. And I think that's where that's the disconnect. The government the government feels cannabis is harmful, where they're comparing it to tobacco, comparing it to alcohol when it's completely its own thing. And it should not be compared to alcohol and it should not be compared to cigaret. You know, it's a different entity and I think that's where all these things stand. From its how the government views cannabis. 

Trevor: Okay, it's been another good one, Kirk. So I guess I'd say I am Trevor Shewfelt the pharmacist. 

Kirk: I'm Kirk Nyquist, I'm the registered nurse. 

Trevor: And we are Reefer Medness - The Podcast. Check us out. Probably easiest place to find everything. Reefer Medness is our web page, www.Reefemed.ca and all the social media is. I think we're @ReeferMedness. 

Kirk: And, and if you do listen to us as you are right now, give us a rating, get on that, get on that podcast platform and give us a rating. The more the more interaction that we get from our listeners, the better we get more listeners, you know, tell two people they'll tell two people... 

Trevor: and so on and so on.