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E108 - Terry O'Regan and Brains Bioceutical

Terry O'Regan has spent his career in the pharmaceutical industry. He has worked for several Big Pharma companies including ones that have developed important treatments for neurological diseases like Multiple Sclerosis. Terry had heard there was a class of therapeutics for neurological conditions that pharmaceutical companies weren't working on, cannabinoids. Terry kept hearing from neurologists that cannabinoids held great promise for neurological conditions. Enter Brains Bioceutical. Brains is involved in trials around the world looking at phytochemicals including cannabinoids. Trevor and Terry discuss how cannabis medicine is moving into the pharmaceutical space and how all our "Brains" could be better with the right cannabinoids. Come have a listen.

Episode Transcript

Trevor: Kirk, we're back. And I hear you were smoking meat today. And when I told my wife that she said smoking meat or smoking weed, I said, I don't know. I don't know if there wasn't both, What kind of meat were you smoking? 

Kirk: I was curing meat today, actually. And I was in back in my back yard. And I actually have a charcoal barbecue. So I had a I had a pork loin on the barbecue. And my neighbor came back over the alley and said, Hey, what are you smoking in your backyard? And what do you mean? He said, No, no, no, let me clarify that. What are you smoking on your barbecue? So I was doing that in the barbecue, but I was also curing meat for Cossack camp. We're starting to prepare for the summer Cossack camp that I talk about have talked about. And so I'm curing some pork. So today I had some. I was taking pork out of, hard salted pork, and I was putting it on my slow smoker. So I've taken it from the brine. It was in brine for four months, four weeks sorry, four weeks. And I've now got it on the slow smoker for about 12 to 24 hours. So we're trying to make some prosciutto, I guess. 

Trevor: Nice. Nice. Sounds very lovely. 

Kirk: Yeah. And then tomorrow we're going into the slow cooking Chinese style. So, yeah, I was smoking meat in my backyard. 

Trevor: Excellent. All right. So today we're going to talk to Terry O'Regan from Brains Bioceutical. Another fascinating gentleman that I met in in Florida at CannMed23. I met him at lunch, him and someone else whose voice you've heard on here. Marcus Roogan. We're having lunch was it was lovely and chatting. The two of them decided discovered that they were both triathletes. So the next morning they were going to meet at the crack of dawn for a swim in the ocean. And, you know, they turned to me and I'm hoping they were joking said, So you're going to join us and. No, no, I'm probably not going to come swim with the two triathletes in the ocean. But yeah, that's sort of where I met Terry. And though he's an interesting guy with an interesting background. He does a better job of this than I will. But I'll just the he started in pharma and in a company that I was familiar with as a pharmacist, but also I volunteer with the MS Society Multiple Sclerosis Society in Canada for years and his company made some of the things that we use to treat MS. So it just an interesting confluence because we talk about using cannabis, one of the sort of the nobody complains about using cannabis for MS spasticity. So it was just an interesting. It worked, worked out well. So I've quit babbling. Kirk You said you really like this interview. Anything you want to touch on on the top before we go into it? 

Kirk: Yeah. Yeah. I want to prepare the audience for a couple of things actually. When I was talking to Linda Balneaves. Dr. Balneaves in episode 104, she talked a little bit about the limitations that we're having in Canada with getting research done on pharmaceutical products. So cannabis as medicine. A lot of the research happening in Canada right now is cannabis for recreational purposes. But trying to get, you know, GMP products in Canada is very difficult. I remember from that episode she talks about getting recreational cannabis can be the cannabis you buy from the rec store, but if you're going to research medical quality, random studies, you have to have cannabis that meets GMP standards, right? So these guys, Brain bio, bio. 

Trevor: Bioceutical..

Kirk: They are a global leader in the European Union for good manufacturing practice on a specific product, and that is certified production naturally sourced Active Pharmaceutical Ingredients. So there's, you know, they use API in this interview. He uses GMP in the interview and that's what it means good manufacturing practice and Active Pharmaceutical Ingredients. The other thing I find fascinating is because my question is who certifies you dude? Like, who is it? Right. So just really to get down in the weeds here real quick. His company and this is why I'm impressed and I want the audience to know before they get into it. His company Brains and its I have it on our web page, but they are evaluated by the European Medicines Agency, which was founded in 199. European Medicines Agency. It works across the European Union and globally to protect the public and animal health by assessing medicines to rigorous scientific standards and by providing partners and stakeholders with independent science based information on medicines. So these guys, these guys are certified by the EU, by the EU agencies following Good Manufacturing Practice, which is which is a scientific guideline. And I downloaded the guideline Trevor. Now without getting deep into it. I will have it on our web page for those that are very interested, but it gets down to the minuta of how this company is being evaluated. Everything from how they how the like the API derived from animal sources, APIs extracted from plants. It all starts they start getting evaluated from the from the start of the process. So the plant, the plant is gathered. So they've got their hemp or they've got their cannabis; marijuana. And then from the point that that that product enters the lab, everything that touches that product. Everything that they evaluate follows and follows a guideline and is and is assessed. The point is these guys are cutting edge. And what they say is for you know, for natural medicines meets the standard that every other medicine has. So your digoxin, your Dilantin, your nitroglycerin, like it gets down to that minutia. So it's very important the audience knows that this is not just film fly by night guy that's analyzing cannabis. 

Trevor: No. And it's. 

Kirk: The minutia. 

Trevor: And we'll talk about this more at the other end. Love or hate it, this is guy who came from pharma and by all intents and purposes, although we're dealing with cannabinoids, this is a pharma company or a pharma adjacent company. 

Kirk: Well, let him explain it because I want to discuss it after the interview, because I want to get into this. This is this is one of those you brought Big Pharma to Reefer Medness, - The Podcast indirectly. I want to talk about that. So let's listen to the interview. 

Trevor: Let's listen to Terry. 

Kirk: Yeah. 

Trevor: Terry, we've met. It's getting close to a month ago now in Florida and you were a fantastically interesting guy with some and one of, one of the many interesting accents we collected there. We had on some of our little blips. We have everything from Texas accents to German accents to yours, which apparently is kind of a mixture of UK and South African. Let's start with before you were with Brains bio, you were in the pharma world. Where where were you before? Before brains bio. 

Terry O'Regan: Thanks, Trevor. So that's an absolute pleasure to and privilege to be having this conversation with you. I'm passionate about what we teach at Brains Bioceutical, and I think, you know, my background is pharma and I've spent my whole career trying to unlock new treatments for patients that desperately need novel treatments to treat some of the devastating diseases that they face. And so prior to that, I had worked in Big Pharma and I started my career at GSK,  Glaxo Smith Kline. And then I also then moved into biotech, and that's where I spent the latter part of my pre-Brains Bioceutical career. I spent 12 years at a company called Biogen. I was the managing director in the UK for the UK and Ireland operations and I was also the chairman of the industry group. So I worked alongside then our Prime Minister was Theresa May to try and bring health care reform here in the UK. And also, you know, working with Sir John Doe around the Industrial Strategy for Life Sciences here in the UK. So that was a real interesting sort of part of my journey. And then I moved to the USA and with Biogen to manage the neurology business in the USA. So the multiple sclerosis business primarily. But we were also breaking into Alzheimer's and into ALS. 

Trevor: Yeah, you guys were really big and continue to be big in multiple sclerosis. Taking off my pharmacist hat, one of my we'll call my volunteer hats is I'm, I've been involved with Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada for a lot of years anyway. Yes. Your your previous company had has lots to do with MS.. 

Terry O'Regan: And, you know, for me that I was passionate about that because it is the number one debilitating disease of young adults. So, you know, a lot of these diseases we try to treat as an older population, but with multiple sclerosis, you're having 20 year olds or 30 year olds that are being robbed of their careers and their lifestyle. So and that same passion is what are brought into Brains Bioceutical, because, you know, part of my journey and to this space was so many of the neurologists that I dealt with is there for for for multiple sclerosis in particular. So that was my first introduction into sort of the cannabis based sort of medicines to treat some of these really devastating conditions. But as I explored it more and more, you know, really I was talking to oncologists whether I was talking to to neurologist or psychiatrist, the message was always the same, which is Terry we know they work. We you know, there's enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that they work in a lot of our prescribing as off line, you know non-scripted. But what they were saying is, is that we desperately need a company to come along and do some of the clinical studies that are required to tell us how to use it, when to use it, and what dose to use, what combinations of cannabinoids. And so that was that was the catalyst that got me into this industry. 

Trevor: And maybe a side note, maybe along the same lines, something we were discussing was in Canada, more so the less in the US, people have access to we'll call the whole flower cannabis medicinally. You're saying in the in the UK anyway, not that it doesn't exist, but still really hard for people to to get a hold of medicinally. 

Terry O'Regan: It is. I mean to share in the UK we know that there's about 3 million patients that would benefit from cannabis based sort of medicine. So, you know, anxiety, epilepsy, you know, post-traumatic stress disorder, whatever it might be. But only about 25,000 patients have got access to that at the moment, which is like 1% of the population that could benefit from it. So as much as I'm really appreciative of those companies that have got involved in the medical cannabis space, it isn't necessarily providing the solution, you know, for these patients. But also, you know, one of the things that we have to be aware of Trevor, is that there's a there's a very fine line between the medical cannabis plant and the recreational plant. And what has happened is that we've started to modify the plant sufficiently that we've now got very high levels of THC in the plant. And as a result of that, you know, it comes with some complications. So we need to know what we are prescribing. You know, I'm all for it, but know what you're prescribing because we know that these products are safe, relatively speaking, but they're coming with drug interactions that still come with both the side effects. And we have to be aware of them and some of them can be quite, quite serious. So that's why we at Brains Bioceutical, have gone down the isolate route where we extract the isolate from the cannabis plant. And then we looking at various levels of of combinations of other treating diseases as a single agent or in combination. 

Trevor: So and I do want to talk about some of the partners and interesting things that you guys are doing. But how about just simple stuff like because it's really hard to get cannabis across international borders. Where is the the raw material that you're isolating from? Where is that coming from? 

Terry O'Regan: Okay, so we have multiple sources where we will be bringing the crude material into our premises here at our manufacturing sites here at Kent and Kent and here in the UK, it's the old Pfizer facility. We've just invested in that facility. So we've increased our manufacturing capacity eightfold. And so, you know, we want to make sure that we can provide a pharma grade cannabinoid, an API for for existing demand as well as for future demand, as you know, as you go through your phase one, your phase two into your phase three and then ultimately to commercialization. So the volumes and the demand for for increased volumes increases. So, you know, we want to make sure that who ever partners with us that we can continue to service that customer or that partner as they're progressed through their clinical program. So we have multiple sources where we bring in the crude material. It's from industrial hemp. And then what we do is we purify here in the U.K. and as I say, in the old Pfizer facility, but down at Kent Sandwich and Kent. 

Trevor: Okay. And so industrial hemp. So that means the majority of what you're bringing is from the US or is it from all over the world? 

Terry O'Regan: All over the world. 

Trevor: Okay. So you're you're isolating. Are you solely isolating CBD at the moment or are there other cannabinoids that you're that you're getting out of the hemp? 

Terry O'Regan: So that's a great question. So at the moment we are solely isolating CBD. That is what we currently have in our portfolio, but we have an R&D department that we are looking at bringing a crystal land oral formulation of Delta9THC. We also looking at an oil for Delta9THC, and then we looking at CBN and CBG. So those are the those are the other APIs that we are looking at for 2023 and early part of 2024. 

Trevor: Very cool. So I know because I heard you give a talk that some of your partners that you are, that you guys start with the API and then they're doing interesting trials with our are finding some cool stuff with starting with your API. Tell me about any of the projects you guys have been working on. 

Terry O'Regan: Yeah. So you know, we are involved in a number of clinical trials at the moment in a phase three clinical study and, and refractory epilepsy and those results would be reading out quite soon. We are also involved with trend therapeutics that have been doing some really interesting studies and looking at combining our CBD in a nano formulation that they have patented and developed and in combination and looking at in combination with the current standard of care and then looking at whether it could reduce tumor size tumors, tumor sizes as well as prolong life. Now the results are preclinical, but the results are really encouraging. So they've looked at melanoma, they've looked at lung disease, and they've looked at colon cancer, which are three of the five top causes of fatality. And and all three of those sort of preclinical sort of initial work that was done it reduced the tumor size when combined with their CBD formulation with our CBD and standard of care. And that was really encouraging. We've we also are pursuing ourselves in insomnia study with the TGA in Australia in an anti-inflammatory study. And then we've got MHRA and a FDA approved AMPK study back here in London and in the USA. So, you know, we are walking the talk, we're doing our own studies, we want to advance it and to into developing therapeutics. But, you know, as I said, we are supporting academia, biotech and research institutions as well as doing some of our own studies. In addition to that, I would say that, you know, we have you know, we have got some interesting partners that are working with us. So, you know, it's it's common knowledge now that Royal DSM, which is a world leading blue chip pharmaceutical company, particularly in the area of formulations and enhanced by ability by availability mixtures and has invested in Brains Bioceutical. And what that also does is part of the journey is to make sure that we can develop formulations that increase the therapeutic effect, that increase the loading and the stability without compromising the safety, but also are more sort of patient friendly. So, you know, you know, and the pediatric sort of indication, you most probably don't want an oil, you want something else that is more convenient to take. And this is where they are helping us significantly in terms of looking at the way we can formulate these cannabinoids to make it more patient friendly and more conducive to the studies that we are going after. 

Trevor: No, and that's really important in case people forget, because it's easy to forget. Cannabinoids are oil. They're a great they're a great big molecule that doesn't really get absorbed all that well through the stomach. So making it into another formulation that will get that absorbed, like whether it's nanoparticles or something else is a big deal for A. just getting the cannabinoid into people and probably from, you know, a pharmacist point of view, consistently getting the same dose every time. So. So yes, working with a a company who specializes in getting stuff into somebody in a reliable, consistent bioavailable way is a big deal. 

Terry O'Regan: Absolutely. And, you know, when you're looking at the different conditions that we're looking at at the moment, you know, sort of dermatological conditions, you want a, you know, an anointment. When you're looking at some of the sort of lung diseases, COPD or asthma or whatever you want, a safe inhalation. You know, when you're looking at that cancer, you want to make sure that it is compatible with chemotherapy and it doesn't reduce the impact of the chemotherapy. So it's a really specialist field. And that's why, you know, as I said, you know, we re trying to tick all the boxes in terms of doing the science properly, you know, isolating it, formulating it, and making sure that we are well familiar with the, you know, what are the drug interactions, what are the side effects so that physicians know exactly how to prescribe these products. 

Trevor: Cool. And again, if I jump in, if I say that's wrong, but what I didn't realize until I many years into being a pharmacist and I don't think the general public does, is big pharma companies don't do a lot of the basic research. There's a lot of basic research done in universities and other places. And then there's big Pharma who takes it to the public, and there's sort of that gap there between we'll call it university science and big pharma. And this getting across this divide, this translational research is you in is often taken up by will call the biotech companies or companies like yours to get important research across the gap. So is that kind of one of the hopes is you know one two or a dozen things that you develop will eventually sort of be bought up by big Pharma? 

Terry O'Regan: I mean, that's an interesting observation. And what I'd say, Trevor, is you know, how often do we hear, why is Big Pharma not getting involved in cannabinoid based treatments? And I think, you know, the onus is on us as an industry. I don't think we've done the science often to, to the level that it would be approvable by the FDA or the EMA or the MHRA here in the UK. And that's when pharma gets interested, you know, when you can show in your phase one or your phase two that it's safe and that there is an efficacy signal that is attached to it. And that's when, you know, they start to get interested. And I think we've also got to move away from calling it cannabis based medicines. I think we've got to call it what it is, whether it's a Cox-2 inhibitors or what a TBR-1 inhibitor or whatever it might be. And I think that is when pharma is going to become more and more interested in this space. So yeah, absolutely right. And we've got to do the initial early stage clinical development and then I think pharma will start to get more and more interested in this space. 

Trevor: Yeah, and that was something you had mentioned before and really stuck with me is whether you want to call it stigma or something else. The whole, for a chunk of the population calling cannabis based medicine is a positive. But big pharma doesn't like that. So you know calling it but it's not wrong. But like you said, if it was a TRPV receptor antagonist, you know, have happened to be done by a cannabinoid, but call it a TRPV receptor antagonist and then, then you know, it's, it's more palatable to pharma that I think that's a fascinating idea. That had never occurred to me. 

Terry O'Regan: Yeah. And you know, I mean those that have gone before us, I mean a lot of the medicines that pharma on commercializing had their origins in plant based medicines. But you know, we we tend to so, you know, it just is the mode of action seems to define what it is. And I think we need to do that in this segment as well. 

Trevor: So, like you said, way back in pharmacy school, the quote they always gave us was about 25% of everything in our pharmacopeia was originally plant based. So it could very well be higher by now. 

Terry O'Regan: It is higher. People have, I think as we've moved away from it our plans have started to dry up. So hopefully we can we can reverse that trend back into to getting the enthusiasm around some of these sort of plant based medicines. 

Trevor: Terry, this has been fascinating. I really appreciate the time. Was there anything I missed? Anything you wish the audience had heard about Brains Bio and any rabbit hole that I forgot to go down any. any last last words?

Terry O'Regan: You know, all I would say is, as I would add, I would like to end by saying I really believe that we've got a real sort of opportunity as an industry. You know, there's been a number of review papers that have been done around the endocannabinoid system and and whether it's at the campus paper, whether it is the low paper that was done in 2021, the conclusion was always the same, which is by modulating the endocannabinoid system, can potentially unlock therapeutic treatments for some of the major diseases that humans are facing. And I would just say, you know, to the industry, you know, this the opportunity is in our hands and it's how we navigate that. So whether we are medical cannabis, whether we are doing what we're doing at Brain Bioceutical, which is pursuing early stage drug development, it's just raise the bar, let's hold ourselves to the highest standards and let's give people a confidence. And yet the consumer, the physician or the patient giving them a confidence again and these tremendous treatments that are out there that we also need to discover and be able to bring to the market. 

Trevor: Thank you very much, Terry. That was great. 

Terry O'Regan : Thank you, Trevor. 

Trevor: So, Kirk, a couple of things before we talk about the evils of big pharma. So something again, that actually came up in my, back when I was, I guess I still volunteer for the MS society, but I got to go to an MS conference or two. And something I didn't realize until that conference this is years ago, is there is university research and then there are drug company products and there's a gap. So usually the brilliant new ideas come into some university lab, but there's no not necessarily a direct line from the university lab to big Pharma. And you kind of think that, you know, some brilliant young Ph.D. comes up with a new treatment for X, you would think that the pharma companies would be all over it, but they're not because, frankly, they want a winner, right? They want something that's going to make the money, their profit making company, which is fine. But there's this gap. You know, I've heard to call it death valley, but it's it I think it's more properly called translational research. The how do we get something out of a university lab and get it sort of ready for prime time that a pharma company might be interested in it. And, you know, ten, 20 years ago we would call these biotech companies. That was kind of what they would hope to do is find some interesting research in a lab, get it, you know, do maybe a phase one clinical trial or something and get it sort of to a point that a pharma company would be interested in it. And that's kind of what Brains reminds me of now is sort of a cannabis version of a biotech company that is taking some of the stuff out of the cannabis plant, getting it kind of ready for prime time that maybe you're not that they couldn't do stuff on their own. But, you know, I also might be ready for a huge pharmaceutical company sort of to pluck it later. There that was I want to oh, the other thing I want to get out before we do the evils of pharma is I thought it was fascinating because I hadn't thought of it before in the UK, in Great Britain, in England right now, it is hard to get medicinal cannabis. It's theoretically possible, but it's just difficult. So one of the thoughts in Brains Bioceutical is if we could get, the good stuff out of cannabis and turn it into a pharma product, then it would be easier for the public to have access to. Now, I know there's going to be some whole plant people who that drive some crazy, but it's not a it's not a terrible thought. And even just the the naming stuff, you know, instead of calling it cannabinoid medicine, name it by the you know, the enzyme it works on. Is this TRPV inhibitor. You know, in in pharmacy world I have ACE inhibitors which you know, is for blood pressure is. So we talk about the enzyme, we talk about what it does and it does blood pressure. So instead of, you know, basically and it might be a stigma thing, cut off all the everything that says cannabis to it and introduce that to pharma world again. So I think that's a good place to segway into kirk What do you think about Big pharma and cannabis? 

Kirk: Oh no, you're jumping to conclusions here on me. I'm very intrigued by what these guys are doing. I'm of two minds, of course, and I agree with you, the green culture and the whole entourage effect, is there going to be that group of people? But there's a quote that really stuck out for me, and the quote was "by modulating the endocannabinoid system can potentially unlock therapeutic treatment for some of the major diseases humans are facing." I find that fascinating. I am I've had these deep, dark conversations. I've had people in the green culture yell at me about, you know, destroying the plant and taking away. And Linda, again, Dr. Balneaves and I were talking about this is when big pharma touches and these guys are one degree removed from Big Pharma, right? 

Trevor: Yes they are. 

Kirk:  But when big Pharma comes touching cannabis, that's when we get scared. And I agree, I, I don't want to see cannabis become a moneymaking thing for Big pharma. Now I get it. Brains, they're researching cannabis and they're going to want to get their money back eventually. I get it. I understand all that, but I am fascinated by the fact that why shouldn't we take the plant apart and find its components? I was going to challenge you and I, and I should have said it beforehand. Can you name some plants that derive medicines? I mean foxglove? Yeah. 

Trevor: Digoxin . Back when, when I was in pharmacy school, the quote was, you know, 25% of the pharmacopeia of the drugs we use, you know, came from from a natural source. I'm sure it's higher. But, you know, tetrodotoxin, we use it to sort of immobilize freeze paralyze muscles during surgery. That was from a plant. Oh, there's a whole, whole bunch. 

Kirk: I think it's fantastic. I like what. 

Trevor: Belladonna.

Kirk: Sure. 

Trevor: The most beautiful woman. That was a mushroom. Yeah, it's lots and lots and lot. You know, Mother Nature is a way better chemist than we are. 

Kirk: Yeah, I love what these guys are doing. I think it's fantastic. I they're doing it at the cutting edge. They should be in Canada. But I'm of two minds, I think. Why shouldn't we take this plant apart? And I love the fact that these guys are doing it at the highest possible, at the highest possible level of cleanliness and scientific scrutiny. That's the word I've been looking for all day. Scrutiny. And also, yeah, it gets right back to again, I am quoting Linda because she's I thought it was a fantastic episode. Episode 104, one of the big disconnects that we have in cannabis medicine in Canada is that contemporary medicine, Western medicine, I don't I don't really even know what to call it anymore. They are uncomfortable with plant medicine and we've discussed this. How do you dose cannabis? I mean, we mean we've got Strain Print that's out there that you know monitors. Taking subjective data into objective data. But this is different. This is like getting right into the chemistry of the plant and saying hey, which cannabinoid and not even calling cannabinoid medicine. I could go on and on. I think this is exciting. I if we're going to change doctors minds, this is how we're going to do it. 

Trevor: This is definitely something we'll call your quote unquote, traditional doctor I'd be comfortable with if if a drug rep came, came into the clinic and says, I have a new TRPV inhibitor, they'll go, Hey, cool. What's that? You know. 

Kirk: And its derived from CBG. I mean, but, but I mean, it pains me, it pains me to say this, and five years ago I probably wouldn't have. But now what I'm learning more and more about cannabis. I think this is the way we got to go. And this is sort of  what Dr. Balneaves was saying. But again, again, when you talk big pharma, I get really uncomfortable because you can grow this plant in my backyard. And damn if you're going to start charging me the prices of insulin to use it. Right. However, if it cures my MS, I'll pay for it. Right. 

Trevor: Well, and I think it also leads and maybe I'm turning into the Kirk in the conversation, but I mentioned before, I'll mention again, it amazed me at the CannMed 23, and obviously it's always a middle way, but there seemed to be the whole plant medicine people. You know, entourage effect and you know, you can't get, you can't get a good effect unless you use the whole plant. And then there were the take the plant apart, find an individual cannabinoid and treat an individual indication. One cannabinoid, one indication, because that's kind of the pharma way of things. And I don't think it's not the never the twain shall meet, but it's it's definitely two schools of thought. I like I like that we still have, you know, Dr. Russo and Dr. Dedi Meiri who say no there's there's a middle way when we use some of them the cannabinoids together sort of in an entourage like effect and sometimes we don't. So you know I think the middle way, the Canadian way, the middle way might end up being the best. But yeah, it's definitely you have the whole plant it sometimes it often seemed like I had two whole plant people on one side and the pick-it-apart, people on the other and not a lot of middle ground. 

Kirk: But I think this has to happen. I think this has to happen. I think we need to I think we need to break the thing down and see, you know, does CBN actually help with sleep or is it a combination of CBN CBD or is it a combination of one particular strain that you can take as oil or you can smoke? This all has to happen. This is this is how we as people explore our world. Yes, we know the plant works. Yes, a lot of people benefit from it. But my goodness, if we could isolate one specific cannabinoid that triggers the dopamine effect inside the Parkinson's mind and you go, ho ho, I mean, you know, I'll pay for that, you know. Yeah, you know, so. This is great.

Trevor: But but again, to get back to one other, I hope at some time I get him to do an interview. But Dr. Meiri from Israel had a great talk where he said, you know, because his lab literally looks for new cannabinoids and, you know, on this one set, he got it down to if he pulls out what this one cannabinoid it helps treat I'm going to I can't remember which I'm going to say leukemia. It treats as one disease. One cannabinoid one disease that makes pharma happy. But then he another thing it the whole bunch of experiments later he needed three, three to treat I think it was breast cancer if I'm wrong I'm sorry, but another disease needed three cannabinoids. No, not one, not two, not some mishmash, but it needed three.  It truly needed an entourage effect of three cannabinoids to treat the disease they're looking for. So I think there's going to be I think there's going to be a little bit of both. 

Kirk: I think this is great. Once again, I compliment you. This is this a fabulous guest, takes us takes my knowledge in a different way. I have explored the web page. I'm Kirk Nyquist. I'm the registered nurse. 

Trevor: I'm Trevor Shewfelt. I'm the pharmacist Terry O'Regan, Thank you very much for chatting with us. We really appreciate it. 

Kirk: Reefer Medness The Podcast we'll have will have stuff on the on our web page you can refer to. Yeah, I think this is great. Another good one Trevor. Well done.