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E98 – The Godfather of Cannabis Two Point Oh! - Owen Smith - Part 2

Kirk and Owen continued discussion moves into a more personal realm as they share their views of the current state of Medical Cannabis industry. Kirk sees a disconnect with federal verses provincial government system management whereas Owen wants more services for individuals needing cannabis as medicine. As he continues his advocacy of medical cannabis, Owen also speaks to current projects to help society be a better place to live. Tune into the second part of a conversion with Canada’s Godfather of Cannabis Two point Oh!

Wednesday, 25 January 2023 15:37

Meet our guest

Owen Smith

Research Links

Music By

Peter Tosh – Glass House
Desiree Dorion
Marc Clement

(Yes we have a SOCAN membership to use these songs all legal and proper like)

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Episode Transcript

Trevor: We're back,. 

Kirk: We're Back. 

Trevor: Part Two. Owen Smith. 

Kirk: Owen Smith. Yeah, We're getting into just having a casual, casual conversation. We start talking a little bit more about the politics, and I ask him some very medical centric, health care centric questions. He answers them quite well in his understanding of cannabis and medical cannabis. And it was just basically a Zoom meeting with a couple of guys chatting.

Trevor: Yeah. No. And obviously you're knowledgeable, too, but one who has a huge, deep knowledge of how we got here through the medical system and maybe where he thinks it's going. But anyway, you'll enjoy this and we'll come out and talk about it a little bit at the other end. 

Kirk: Yeah. So what? What did you graduate from Camosun college with? 

Owen Smith: Sociology.

Kirk: Oh, well, that's a good diploma to get. It doesn't get you a job, but it's good to have. 

Owen Smith: It was me sort of pursuing interests. I'm trying to understand the world and looking at groups of people. Try to understand how people work in groups. That's just fascinating to me. 

Kirk: Education, man. Yeah, I love studying people too. In nursing, Part of my job is to read people and, you know, figure out community health and how communities behave and, you know, segueing into the podcast learning about cannabis in a new way. Of course, you know, I grew up in Victoria in the seventies and cannabis is everywhere. I can remember working at a place in the Hillside Mall and it used to be an ice cream joint there used to get ice cream. And I worked in Little Harry's. It was called, and I can remember, you know, you'd be scooping ice cream. You look up and you can smell the cannabis. These guys are walking through the mall, you know, boldly smoking a reefer, you know, and it's sort of like that. So that's my influence, you know? So coming out to the prairies later in life as a career, and then your medical cannabis becomes a reality. It's like, Gee whiz, here I am a nurse. Why aren't we using medical cannabis? What are you talking about Kirk? Well, okay, you know, so the medical field doesn't even respond in the early aughts. And then all of a sudden there's recreational cannabis and now everybody's aware of cannabis. But I think what's happening is that the medical side of cannabis is even losing the momentum that it had. What do you think? Do you think I'm on the right track with that? 

Owen Smith: Well, I definitely saw medical excluded from when they introduced all new legislations for, you know, it is not common that we have so much taxes on, so much have to go through to get medicine in Canada and not having storefront access to this medicine like they granted it for everybody else. But. You don't think that medical patients would get that extra consideration, that it didn't get anything at that time? So definitely left behind was the feeling, the sense that Health Canada doesn't really like to manage this large system. There are municipalities and provinces and other different places where the cannabis grow within the system that Health Canada manages. It is not really that welcomed, but in the federal program that people are allowed to and must be allowed to grow there. You know, that these were rights that were established in court. So, they come in high standard. Whether or not the politicians at this point really understand them, if they're thinking about removing them, you know? 

Kirk: Yeah. Well, you know, you were saying you were saying in the first interview about about the review, you know, the Cannabis Act is up for review. I also participated in it, and I was quite surprised and happy that it was all long form, that it wasn't multiple choice. So I, I got to the point where and it's the final few questions where they say, what do you think about the current medical system should not just go through the dispensaries that are already there. And it was artfully written because it really. The answer is yes. But but what you're saying is that medical people will get the cannabis from recreational stores is what they're saying. What I read into it. Did you read that as well? That part because it. 

Owen Smith: Yeah, essentially. Do we need it at all or can they really be served by the recreational approach. 

Kirk: What do you think the risks of that is? 

Owen Smith: Well, I think there's. There's a benefit potentially to some of the retailers who are struggling. I think they would like to have that business, but medical patients, maybe a little bit more than recreational. I mentioned a little bit about the UTNDR service, which has a person like myself who would talk to you and discuss your progress. 

Kirk: So you're providing a medical cannabis service through the Internet similar to the services you guys are giving at the Victoria Buyers Club? 

Owen Smith: Similar. Like the Victoria Cannabis Buyers Club is a great example of somewhere where you go and have somebody who will introduce you to cannabis through an orientation. If you're intent is medical, it's not necessarily that you just sort of get the same service as a recreational consumer. You don't want to necessarily have the same products. You need to be oriented towards products that are going to suit your issues. You know, that's really important. And in some cases, people with a medical condition need to be warned if they have a heart condition things like this. People have questions and having somebody there to answer them, especially if your health is compromised, is really important psychologically. And even if it's not going to be you get your medical advice from your doctor, but you can talk about cannabis to have somebody hold your hand talking about products. Like in the VCBC, you got an array of different products from multiple different kinds of capsules to all kinds of different skin products. There's lots of questions to be asked about. Yeah, about those. And it's, you know, the care and community aspect comes in more when it's not just about the bottom line, It's not just about making money moving people along if it's only going to be a small purchase. So there are places in the world where you've got, I understand, two lines where one can be medical and one can be a recreational line and they have slightly different services, and they could even have different pricing. 

Kirk: That's the Colorado model. 

Owen Smith: Yeah, right. 

Kirk: When I was in Colorado, I did an episode from down there prior to recreational legalization in Canada and you walked into the shop and yeah, the right side was recreation and the left side was medical. And on the medical side there is tax exemptions, information, different actual different products that were grown for different reasons. It was a whole different side. But in the same shop that was an ideal system. But our current recreational system doesn't provide for that now. And I think governments are ignorant enough to believe that medical people will get the services from the recreational center. 

Owen Smith: But its kind of contrary, again, to the government's intentions or goals within the recreational system. And the reason that they introduced that, which was to have, it's a little bit of a training wheels system where because you're getting people in with all kinds of intent, you want to keep the strength of the price of these things and the edibles particularly low. You've got the intent to protect children and you've got news stories about hospitals, hospitalizations with edibles. These are things in the recreational stream which are counter to the government's intent and maybe not necessary there, but in the medical side of things, hundred percent is necessary. That's exactly where we're pointing to the need for people with chronic conditions and for people with extreme pain. You have to have a high tolerance to cannabinoids. You know is ridiculous proposition of getting that from a recreational store? If you've got the money, can you eat it that much? 

Kirk: So where do you think the disconnect is? 

Owen Smith: Well, it's hard to say.

Kirk: I think I want to think the federal government has good intent with the medical side. I want to think that they see the court cases as telling them that they need to accommodate for people. I think what I think where the disconnect is is that the provinces are responsible for medical systems. The only medical system, the federal government's response was for indigenous peoples. They have no experience with providing medical services to Canadians other than indigenous peoples. So I think the disconnect is that the medical systems, the colleges of doctors, the colleges of nurses haven't had to work with medicine, cannabis as medicine because it's not listed as medicine in the provinces. So that's where I think the disconnect is. 

Owen Smith: Well, in line with my experience in the court, listening to the government arguments, the Section One charge of argument that is used to counter the Section Seven that we put forward is the government is designed that they have to protect vulnerable groups. So I think inherent in their argument in holding on to potentially the federal system is that it is so that they are protecting certain groups that are considered vulnerable to cannabis. Those would be children mostly at this point, I don't think people. 

Kirk: Well, people with arrhythmias maybe also. 

Owen Smith: Right. The heart related things. 

Kirk: Right, so but is that the federal government's responsibility or provincial governments? 

Owen Smith: Well, that was my view that we're seeing the loosening of a daily grip. You know, this hundred years, you know, the fist of prohibition has calloused over and it doesn't just spring open. It is it is leaking. And there are structures that had grown during prohibition that will no longer be needed by society. And thus that's just kind of a slow process, potentially. We'd like to knock down the barriers, but for whatever reason, it just takes forever for governments to do things and just stall and slow and delay as they can. 

Kirk: Yeah, yeah. But there are also I wrote about this. Talking to Ted is interesting. Like I spent an afternoon with him and just chatted with his experiences and recorded it and put it out and just trying to figure out why. I mean, we've had cannabis as medicine for 22 years, 20 years. We've had federal legislation through your own activities that has basically said cannabis is medicine. But yet we've got provincial governments that are treating it like it's something to protect people from because recreational cannabis. Then we've got the medical side where we've got even now with the federal government in reviewing the medical cannabis, the Cannabis Sector Recreational Act, they're trying to lump the two together and they're not. And it, I just find it I mean, you're in it, you know, you've gone to court, I'm observing it. I'm in the health care system. And it frustrates me that the health care system still are fighting cannabis. I don't I don't see why. 

Owen Smith: Well, there's always been the arguments around pharmaceutical domination of our health care system. And, you know, cannabis offers a replacement for lots and lots of drugs which are supporting a lot of people and companies. And they are you know, I'm talking about said people who use those drugs and people who sell those drugs and sort of at this point, you know. We're so far down the road with pharmaceuticals that it's a real threat. And with cannabinoid therapies coming through, I think these companies would probably like to replace upgrade their offerings rather than just let people have their own plants. We have to really support the people doing it for themselves, like what I would be doing, teaching people that it's a fairly easy plant to grow. It's nice to be around. Even when you're growing it. You can make it into things more easily and all sorts of things, empowering people, you know, taking it on for themselves versus whereas have more centralized, larger source to sort of controlling it and stripping at it. I see the industry responding in some ways. What may be the nature of the industry to move toward smaller and medium sized companies. What is the biggest multibillion dollar companies with all the advantages losing out altogether. The values dropping from $150 a share down to something like pennies on the dollar. And this just reflects to me that there is a different way to do it. That's not the traditional means that the existing corporations that we have in the world are familiar with. It's a new way. A cannabis company has to operate in alignment with their consumer base. Cannabis people and their consumer base are going to determine the kinds of companies that they want to win in the long run. So I see some necessarily a reshuffling and reordering, but bringing it home. Why not growing your own cannabis. If you're a medical patient we've always considered it to be a therapeutic exercise to go outside and pluck some leave. You know, this makes lots of sense. And why not? People start to do that just generally. It's good for your health, whether you're going to keep a little cabinet of medicines for particular time. You know, we have that opportunity now. I do think as a community, as a cannabis community to help people learn how to grow cannabis so they can start learning to love it on their own and then start to become shares of it so that they can build a more social, more social time. You know, post-pandemic is really anti social and we've got legal cannabis now post, you know we can start getting social again. We need to try to be creative with it. 

Kirk: It is interesting that when one of the most successful businesses during the pandemic were cannabis companies. 

Owen Smith: Essential services. 

Kirk: Yeah, I can respect your political side of it. I should actually allow you to talk more on a personal level. Thank you for indulging me getting into politics.  On a personal level. What's happening in your world? Are you still baking. 

Owen Smith: Right now, I just launched a company called Ethical Growth Consulting. So it's a cannabis business development company with content, we build content strategies, being very creative with social media and also looking at impact. So what is the social impact of your company and the environmental impact. I have a couple of cool people working with me. My former manager at Aurora is the corporate social responsibility manager.  He is working with me, and Anne-Marie Fischer formerly of Cannawrite. Who is all over the content developer. 

Kirk: I know her very well. I've interviewed her and met her in Nanimo, wonderful lady. 

Owen Smith: I get to meet with them every Monday and we get to talk about what we're up to and try to forge ahead in certain projects. Right now, one of the things we're working on is for the environment is plastic packaging in B.C. There’s a grant funding for plastics reuse and circular economy models. And we, with the help of Mika Unterman from Apical in Ontario who has a box return program going on for their Master Pack Boxes, we're going to try to do one for Canada's plastic packaging with the help potentially, if we succeed of the British Columbia government and some funding organizations for the environment. So, that pretty exciting.  So we can sort of get a model so that the licensed producers, if you produce a package, there could be a place you could just once you've made enough of them and they've been returned by your consumers, they've been washed and prepared for you to use again. And so you don't have to buy new packaging. You can actually get it at a discount. And you can also say that you are, you know, helping to reduce the waste in the landfill, which is the big win, right? So that's something that we're doing in the environmental angle. 

Kirk: That's very cool. 

Owen Smith: Also working with some consulting with some First Nations to help the economic development of some First Nations who have been impacted hard by prohibition and really deserve to get involved with this industry and haven't really been given a lot of opportunity to get ahead is not really a social equity program for cannabis in Canada like there is in the United States in a lot of places. So we kind of have to try to do it ourselves until there may be something introduced. Part of this Cannabis Act review is to review the Impact Cannabis Act on First Nations. And so it's my understanding from talking with many and listening in to Zoom calls that they have not been consulted, they weren't given enough time to organize this. And they also feel left behind by the Canada's plan to legalize cannabis. And so this is a really important area of focus is what I am learning because of the harms that continue related to use of opiates that could be substituted with cannabis products. That continues on. But the potential for these nations to develop economically their own cannabis businesses and have their own opportunities for success in the new global cannabis markets. Because it might just be that people around the world are more interested in buying cannabis from First Nations than they are from large corporations, and that should be their choice. 

Kirk: That's very cool projects. You're still you're still involved with the Buyers Club? 

Owen Smith: Absolutely. I'm a volunteer on the board down there. 

Kirk: Are you able to update us on the legal their legal story at the moment? Last time I left them, they were they had the they were levied an incredible fine of $6.3 million. 

Owen Smith: 6.5.

Kirk: Five, oh geez. Yeah. 

Owen Smith: Well, the hearing for this has not been called yet. The application for the exemption with Health Canada is still in motion.  I believe in Health Canada's court. The developments elsewhere of the court decisions in Alberta and recently in Saskatchewan that speak to the issues that are in the exemption applications. They support, add support to that application. If, of course, it's not accepted then they will support the legal application. It's just, the only thing. It's just so expensive, you know, for a small group, a nonprofit who is always trying to keep prices low as possible for the clientele, in part in competition with the prices that are dropping elsewhere because of the flooding of the market. It's harder than ever to fundraise in this post-pandemic world to raise money for these types of court cases. So I would say anybody out there who's listening. It is needed. It is necessary. If you wanted, to reach out to the Victoria Cannabis Buyers Club and support the ongoing so far successful but continually important court cases that Ted Smith: and the VCBC are at the helm of at this point? 

Kirk: Are they are they a registered charity? 

Owen Smith: Nonprofit?

Kirk: Nonprofit. Okay, so they can issue tax receipts for people who are looking to donate. 

Owen Smith: Reach out to them they'll be able to tell you about. 

Trevor: So, Kirk, a couple of takeaways I had. So he's not completely against. So I think he brought up the idea first that, does Health Canada really want a medical system. You know, maybe they don't. Maybe they just don't want to be involved cannabis at all, which honestly I can't dispute any of that. And the you know, I think and we've talked to lots of people who think there should be a medical system. But he brings up, you know, let's do a little devil's advocate. If there wasn't a medical system. Might it be just easier for people to go to, you know, their corner cannabis store and buy their medicine? Yeah, maybe. You know, might it be a little cheaper? Maybe. And you brought this up, too. But, you know, I think what we would lose is, well, the people I see in the pharmacy were asking me questions. You know, the 75-year-old who hasn't used canvas before, who's interested, but has no idea what to do next. Now, the good news is it sounds like Owen and so's compatriots might be having an online system to at least give some people like that some guidance. But. But yeah. Thoughts about medical system. The review. Medical cannabis versus rec. What? What were you thinking? 

Kirk: A lot.  I'm thinking a lot. First of all, again, it's important. I'm trying to find more My Cannabis Stories and more medical cannabis stories because I think I think the medical system is at risk. Now, I'm not adverse to change because the current system definitely needs changing, but inferring through the medical, through the Cannabis Act review process, inferring that the Health Canada is considering allowing or just moving or however they phrased it, to use rec stores for picking up cannabis. I get it. I understand. But the problem is, is that the recreational market place is all about it's all about preventing the harm of the vulnerable, you know, because cannabis is something to be protected from. The medical side of cannabis is educating people on how cannabis does help people with medical needs. So I think the goals are different just by definition. And having the government say that they think medical cannabis can be obtained from a recreational store for supply only, but where is the information coming from? And I mean, we interviewed Justyna in the last episodes and you know, there's a person that provides education right. Now Owen talks about his UTNDR. You know what is UTNDR and I was on the web page today and UTNDR is basically a bunch of people who are who are medical cannabis experienced who are basically making themselves available. You know back in the day you would phone a paging system and say, could you please page Dr. So-and-so? And the operator would dial a number and the pager on the guy's belt would go off and Dr. So-and-so would pick up his phone and or find a phone and make a phone call. Nowadays you got a web page where you can go in Canada and there are, gosh, dozens. Let's see the UTNDR. One, two, three, four, five. And there's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. There are nine, ten rows. There are 49 people on this page that are saying, call me if you have medical concerns. This is my understanding. These are people that are prepared to give you advice. So but again, I don't see people I mean, these are knowledgeable people. And we've talked about the cannabis industry being a new industry, that people are educating themselves as they go. Justyna is a perfect example. You know, she's a young lady that got into the industry and she's now knowledgeable and she gives advice. But I still I still believe more health care professionals need to be accessible and knowledgeable and available to people that use medical cannabis. 

Trevor: I completely agree. And I've got to step on your toes here a little bit. But two of the things one, we came from Justyna, I am coming back to her because she made an excellent point. That was one of those, of course, but I didn't think about it. But nothing against our bud tenders or UTNDR or but even even the most knowledgeable about cannabis person doesn't necessarily have the medical background to know sort of what else is going on in the patients medical stuff. And again, just obviously self-interested, but, you know. Even a lot of medical professionals don't necessarily have the records of all the other medicines that they're on like a pharmacist does. So I agree. It doesn't mean that, you know, health care professionals necessarily have to be the end all be all. But it sure would make sense for health care professionals to be in the loop here. And the other one that Justyna brought up that it was one of these forehead slapping moments. The rec stores are set up more or less to sell high THC products because that's more or less what the rec system was. You know, not everybody, not all the time, yadda, yadda. But and a lot of people on the medicinal side want low THC products. Again, not all the time. You know, one of our big examples seem to be our Lyme Disease people seem to like high THC things. But if even the, you know, the rec and the medical are literally looking for different things of the plant, it seems like. Yeah, having two systems would make sense. 

Kirk: I've sort of said it over the last 97 episodes, 98 episodes that the medical side is, is somehow forgotten. And one of the reasons why we started this podcast was to learn more about cannabis and, and, and on the heels of the recreational system. And I really believe the recreational system is, is, is a huge mammoth industry. However, people are losing money, whereas the medical system, it's been around longer and it's not getting the attention it deserves. This is why this is why I originally called Owen because I wanted to talk about medical cannabis with the guy that was that's been there for a few years. I mean, Ted Smith, I mean, he's been there for like since the late nineties. So these guys have been around a while in the medical field and it's it's the medical field teaching the health industry about medical cannabis and Health Canada, Health Canada not helping us in the process. You know, sometimes sometimes they get sometimes they get a little too hot. But I do it on purpose in the sense that I think I think we got to be more aware that people use cannabis as medicine, I think more often than they use it as recreation. This is coming from a guy that's been using recreational cannabis for decades. I come to appreciate that it's like having a glass of beer or having a whiskey at night. You know, it's there's a calming effect. There's a medicinal effect to do using cannabis. But yeah, Owen again, just storytelling, right? Having a conversation. 

Trevor: No. And Owen we really appreciate all the time you gave us and just the depth of knowledge Dude, you, or if not the guy, one of the guys who got us, you know, edibles and extracts and basically anything other than smoke cannabis that was that was you in your courts Thanks, we appreciate that so sorry. 

Kirk: So if Neil Young's the godfather of grunge, maybe. Owen Smith is the godfather of Cannabis 2.0. 

Trevor: Sure works for me. Yeah. So, Kirk: , I'm Trevor: Sheffield. I'm the pharmacist. 

Kirk: Well, are we done? 

Trevor: I thought I'd throw it out a little earlier. I thought I would not wait to the bitter end this time. 

Kirk: Oh, okay. And I'm Kirk Nyquist I'm the registered nurse for Reefer Medness - The Podcast. So, what's new? What do you been up to? You went to a smoking cessation conference? 

Trevor: I did. And talked to some really interesting people and learned some interesting things. And one of the people I saw there in person, which was cool, was Dr. Rob Seeley. If you remember back, we talked to him about Cannabis and Kids quite a while ago. Looks like we're going to get him back on to go to the other end of the spectrum and honestly, probably where his practice is more now because he's another guy in the Victoria area for cannabis and the elderly. He's he sort of caught my attention at one of the breaks and yeah, probably one of those popular talks I do now is Green is the New Gray so that while that that kind of fits in really nicely with what and we haven't done a specific sort of older person and cannabis thing yet which is surprising because there is lots of interest out there in the I don't know what 70 plus age bracket. You know, people are interested because, you know, once you start getting a little bit older, you have a few more aches, pains, etc., etc. And, you know. Does did does your friend's CBD oil that their kid recommended for them, does that work for you? Should you try it? You know, all those questions are out there. So I thought, Dr. Seeley, be a great guy to bring back. 

Kirk: Episode, Season Three Episode Seven.  Cannabis is for Kids. Did you not also speak at the conference? Can I out you? 

Trevor: Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. You did not out me. The majority of the time we spent at this one was about not even smoking cessation. More like harm reduction, tobacco harm reduction. So if someone can't, won't whatever, quit actual tobacco smoking, what can we do instead? And there's all sorts of interesting things to learn there, like, is vaping a good option. Is heat-not-burn tobacco. So, you know, instead of actually burning the tobacco, if you just heat it up and just get the nicotine out, does that eliminate a lot of the harmful stuff out of cigarettes and yes, probably it does. But we did manage to sneak in a little section towards the end, end of the day, where I got to talk a little bit about this podcast that I keep doing. You know, that particular room was, I think, half a dozen pharmacists and two or three physicians, and I was sort of the opening act for a Dr. Rob Sealy who then talked about, you know, how he treats people with cannabis. And not to brag, but people kept saying at dinner that night that, you know, the most interesting segment of the day was the cannabis one, because, you know, cannabis is interesting. 

Kirk: So so we got two more listeners. Fantastic. 

Trevor: Absolutely.

Kirk: Well, I'm going to out myself. As you know, I'm working with Nunavut right now and doing a contract with Nunavut. Nunavut, as a territory, 74% of the people consume tobacco or smoking products. 51% of people between 16 and 21 consume tobacco. They have a huge issue in the north where Hyperemesis syndrome, cannabis, cannabis induced psychosis. These are real problems happening Nunavut. And about two months ago, I got hired on as their cannabis consultant. So I've been working on that. And the reason why I'm outing myself, because I sent my first invoice and they're paying me. So I guess it's official. Yeah. Yeah. So, So I've become a cannabis consultant for Nunavut, but I'm also I'm also building a harm reduction plan. They, they have a piece of legislation called the Smoking Act. TheTobacco Smoking Act. Pardon me, the Tobacco Smoking Act. And my job is to build them the implementation plan, how they are going to implement it, and the, you know, the risk, the risks and benefits of this is the benefits are monumental. You mean if they if they can cut down the risk of chronic disease through the consumption of tobacco, through harm reduction methods bonus. But of course, the risk is that this is a multi-generational plan that, you know, you build an Act, you build you build a piece of legislation that everyone Nunavut has to follow. How do you implement it right?

Trevor: How do you implement it? How to get buy in, how to add it, and then do that? 

Kirk: Well, I'm working on that right now and in my basement suite in Dauphin, Manitoba, Canada. So so I'm working on that, which is kind of cool. It's a it's a cool project. If I can help people with their tobacco smoking and cut down the their chronic diseases in Nunavut well, I'll put that on my little resume as a retired guy. 

Trevor: Absolutely.  Good on you and good on Nunavut and we will hope to hear updates on that. And yeah, no, it's it kind of fits in well with sort of everything professionally you've been doing up till now. 

Kirk: Yeah, it kind of blends it all again thanks to Owen and I never planned to make this a two parter. He has requested reggae music, so I'm going to just carry on with the Peter Tosh. We're going to play it play another Peter Tosh. And to be honest, I haven't listened to Peter Tosh in a little while. I had a lot of fun and a lot of time for Peter in, in the in the late seventies, early eighties. I played him a lot. So I'm going to, I'm going to and I'm going to dance to this one as we're listening to it. 

Trevor: And just pretend you're on. What's what's the name of the Bay and in Victoria. 

Kirk: Oh, Arbutus Cove. 

Trevor: Yeah, Arbutus Cove. So this is Kirk back, Arbutus Cove in Victoria, listening to Peter Tosh. 

Kirk: Listening to Peter Tosh dancing and all the links for Owen will be on our web page. So Owen's endeavors will be up there and linked. And thanks again. So cheers, mate. 

Trevor: Have a good evening, everybody.